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Author Topic:   Karl Rove: Traitor?
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 271 (221417)
07-03-2005 3:06 AM


It kinda sorta looks that way. This started Friday night when MSNBC's Lawrence O'Donnell (who I thought had been fired from that network after his swift boat meltdown last year, but apparently not) said on The McLaughlin Group that Rove was the source of the Valerie Plame leak. The link above goes to Newsweek, and although they don't come right out and say it was Rove, it sure looks that way.
NewsAmericaNow and AMERICAblog have been on it since Friday night. Both are highly biased sites, but with Newsweek paying attention I don't think the mainstream media will be able to ignore it entirely.
If nothing else, one can hope that the doubt created by this will at least cause Bush's political muscle to atrophy just a bit. It couldn't happen at a better time than now.

Replies to this message:
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berberry
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 271 (221801)
07-04-2005 11:29 PM


This story is growing legs
Both the NY Times and LA Times ran with it today. MSNBC has moved the Newsweek piece to a more prominent place on its homepage, and now there's this from Ted Rall on Yahoo! News.
I don't want to get too excited just yet, but we might soon get to the point that even Fox News won't be able to ignore this any longer (which of course they have so far).

"I think younger workers first of all, younger workers have been promised benefits the government promises that have been promised, benefits that we can't keep. That's just the way it is." George W. Bush, May 4, 2005

Replies to this message:
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berberry
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 271 (222131)
07-06-2005 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Tal
07-06-2005 10:53 AM


Re: This story is growing legs
Tal asks:
quote:
Just to satisfy my curiosity, what do you guys/gals think of Deepthroat?
Traitor or Hero?
Hero. Felt never outed a CIA operative. He exposed criminal activity among the highest officials of the government. Rove (if he is indeed guilty as charged) outed a CIA agent, most likely as an act of revenge against her husband. At worst, he might have outed her to prevent her digging too deeply into the question of whether Iraq possessed WMD, which of course we now know Iraq did not.

"I think younger workers first of all, younger workers have been promised benefits the government promises that have been promised, benefits that we can't keep. That's just the way it is." George W. Bush, May 4, 2005

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Tal, posted 07-06-2005 10:53 AM Tal has not replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 271 (222137)
07-06-2005 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Tal
07-06-2005 11:02 AM


Re: This story is growing legs
Yes, it was illegal. It was also illegal for those African-Americans to sit down at that lunch counter in South Carolina. It was illegal for Rosa Parks to refuse to give up her seat on that bus in Montgomery. It was illegal for Harriet Tubman to escape slavery and to help other slaves escape.
For that matter, it was illegal for the original patriots to defy British authority and sign the Declaration of Independence.
Sometimes illegal actions are heroic.
And yes, there was a "proper" recourse Felt could have pursued. That would have been resignation, and we'd have never learned that Nixon and Co. were a band of crooks had that been the course Felt had chosen.
Felt was a hero. Rove, if guilty, is a traitor. Big difference.

"I think younger workers first of all, younger workers have been promised benefits the government promises that have been promised, benefits that we can't keep. That's just the way it is." George W. Bush, May 4, 2005

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Tal, posted 07-06-2005 11:02 AM Tal has not replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 271 (222276)
07-06-2005 11:02 PM


Try a Google News search
While most of the media are increasing the attention to this matter, FoxNews is moving in the opposite direction. Hardly any surprise there.
I'm curious if anyone here watches CNN. Have they interrupted their round-the-clock Florida shark coverage yet? I mostly watch MSNBC and NWI (more of the former since this broke) and it's been prominent on almost all their primetime shows, even Tucker Carlson's talking about it. The one exception seems to be Joe Scarborough, who hasn't mentioned it at all except tangentially in his praise of Judith Miller.
And now Ms. Miller goes to jail. Does anyone else think she's stunting? Regardless of what her motives are, her arrest and the debate over whether journalists should have immunity to protect sources raises an interesting question: in this day of countless news sources and internet blogs, who is and who is not a journalist? The implications of the answer to that question could be profound.
Whatever facts turn up in this case, it's going to be interesting. While we wait, you might enjoy checking Google News. Run a search on 'Karl Rove' and see what turns up.

"I think younger workers first of all, younger workers have been promised benefits the government promises that have been promised, benefits that we can't keep. That's just the way it is." George W. Bush, May 4, 2005

Replies to this message:
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berberry
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 271 (223201)
07-11-2005 5:47 PM


Mainstream Media Finally Confronts the White House
Consider this exchange from today's WH press briefing between Scott McLellan and NBC's David Gregory:
Q: Scott, can I ask you this: Did Karl Rove commit a crime?
MCCLELLAN: Again, David [Gregory of NBC], this is a question relating to a ongoing investigation, and you have my response related to the investigation. And I don't think you should read anything into it other than: We're going to continue not to comment on it while it's ongoing.
Q: Do you stand by your statement from the fall of 2003, when you were asked specifically about Karl and Elliot Abrams and Scooter Libby, and you said, "I've gone to each of those gentlemen, and they have told me they are not involved in this"?
MCCLELLAN: And if you will recall, I said that, as part of helping the investigators move forward on the investigation, we're not going to get into commenting on it. That was something I stated back near that time as well.
Q: Scott, this is ridiculous. The notion that you're going to stand before us, after having commented with that level of detail, and tell people watching this that somehow you've decided not to talk. You've got a public record out there. Do you stand by your remarks from that podium or not?
MCCLELLAN: I'm well aware, like you, of what was previously said. And I will be glad to talk about it at the appropriate time. The appropriate time is when the investigation...
Q: (inaudible) when it's appropriate and when it's inappropriate?
MCCLELLAN: If you'll let me finish.
Q: No, you're not finishing. You're not saying anything.
You stood at that podium and said that Karl Rove was not involved. And now we find out that he spoke about Joseph Wilson's wife. So don't you owe the American public a fuller explanation. Was he involved or was he not? Because contrary to what you told the American people, he did indeed talk about his wife, didn't he?
MCCLELLAN: There will be a time to talk about this, but now is not the time to talk about it.
Q: Do you think people will accept that, what you're saying today?
MCCLELLAN: Again, I've responded to the question.
QUESTION: You're in a bad spot here, Scott... because after the investigation began -- after the criminal investigation was under way -- you said, October 10th, 2003, "I spoke with those individuals, Rove, Abrams and Libby. As I pointed out, those individuals assured me they were not involved in this," from that podium. That's after the criminal investigation began.
Now that Rove has essentially been caught red-handed peddling this information, all of a sudden you have respect for the sanctity of the criminal investigation?
It's about damn time!

"I think younger workers first of all, younger workers have been promised benefits the government promises that have been promised, benefits that we can't keep. That's just the way it is." George W. Bush, May 4, 2005

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Dead Parrot, posted 07-11-2005 6:13 PM berberry has not replied
 Message 33 by jar, posted 07-11-2005 7:23 PM berberry has replied
 Message 37 by Silent H, posted 07-12-2005 7:55 AM berberry has not replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 271 (223235)
07-11-2005 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by jar
07-11-2005 7:23 PM


Re: Mainstream Media Finally Confronts the White House
Good point, jar. Maybe the chimp will start looking for someone to fire the special prosecutor.

"I think younger workers first of all, younger workers have been promised benefits the government promises that have been promised, benefits that we can't keep. That's just the way it is." George W. Bush, May 4, 2005

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 07-11-2005 7:23 PM jar has not replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 271 (223550)
07-13-2005 4:51 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Monk
07-12-2005 11:43 PM


Re: Wilson's lies
My time has been severely limited lately so I can't get too deeply involved in this thread even though I started it. I'll let holmes continue to deal with most of what you've posted (he's doing an excellent job), but I wanted to respond to this one sentence:
quote:
No, it’s still debatable whether Plame was covert.
If she wasn't covert, someone should have told Patrick Fitzgerald. Someone should also let Judith Miller's lawyer know since I'm sure he'd be interested. Why don't you write him a letter, Monk? Think of all the grief you'd be saving that poor woman.

"I think younger workers first of all, younger workers have been promised benefits the government promises that have been promised, benefits that we can't keep. That's just the way it is." George W. Bush, May 4, 2005

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Monk, posted 07-12-2005 11:43 PM Monk has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Silent H, posted 07-13-2005 5:55 AM berberry has replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 271 (223569)
07-13-2005 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Silent H
07-13-2005 5:55 AM


Re: Wilson's lies
holmes writes me:
quote:
You must be feeling pretty pleased these days.
Yep, matter of fact! It's especially gratifying since this matter makes it easier than ever to point out the bias of Fox News Channel to my conservative friends and family members. They simply can't refute it this time. What are supposed to be straight newscasts are bringing up the same sorts of slanted, ridiculous issues that Monk brings up, like the nonsense question of whether or not Valerie Plame was a covert agent. Hello people! We have a special prosecutor! If there was no crime, we wouldn't even know his name.
Another thing that the republicrats are overlooking is that the Fitzgerald's investigation is not quite finished. We still don't know what other evidence he has, but we do know that he's a relentless bulldog who isn't known for fucking things up. We know he has something, else he wouldn't be so confident in his case that he would send two popular reporters to jail.

"I think younger workers first of all, younger workers have been promised benefits the government promises that have been promised, benefits that we can't keep. That's just the way it is." George W. Bush, May 4, 2005

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Silent H, posted 07-13-2005 5:55 AM Silent H has not replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 271 (223573)
07-13-2005 9:33 AM


Why do republicans hate CIA agents?
Read what a former CIA agent says about the republicans' lies.

"I think younger workers first of all, younger workers have been promised benefits the government promises that have been promised, benefits that we can't keep. That's just the way it is." George W. Bush, May 4, 2005

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Tal, posted 07-13-2005 9:36 AM berberry has not replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 155 of 271 (224880)
07-20-2005 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Monk
07-20-2005 11:20 AM


my, what high ethical and moral standards you have, mr. president!
Monk writes FliesOnly:
quote:
As Tal pointed out, that's not what the President said.
He answered that direct question affirmatively, but that's a minor point. What's more interesting to me is that a president who originally took office promising to bring high ethical and moral standards back to the White House has now revealed what his high ethical and moral standard is regarding positions within his administration. He won't allow anyone who's been convicted of a crime to work at the White House. What a guy!
Any responsible corporation or government agency (except for a few down in Texas, I hear) would have far higher standards for employment than simply a requirement that one not be convicted of a crime. Hell, even Nixon honored that standard. He had to let G. Gordon Liddy, et. al. go, didn't he?
I'm reminded of the way another beloved conservative president, Ronald Reagan, responded to scandal during his term. As I recall, when the Iran / Contra affair first broke Reagan went on record denying that anyone in his administration had done anything illegal. Once it became obvious that he was wrong, he called a press conference, admitted his mistake and promised that guilty parties would be punished.
Understand that I'm not trying to deify Reagan. There was much more to that scandal than I've mentioned here, but as I remember it Reagan at least had the decency to acknowledge that illegal activity had been perpetrated by members of his staff. Can you imagine, in your wildest dreams, George W. Bush ever doing anything remotely like that?
This message has been edited by berberry, 07-20-2005 11:18 AM

"I think younger workers first of all, younger workers have been promised benefits the government promises that have been promised, benefits that we can't keep. That's just the way it is." George W. Bush, May 4, 2005

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Monk, posted 07-20-2005 11:20 AM Monk has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Monk, posted 07-20-2005 10:28 PM berberry has replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 157 of 271 (225030)
07-20-2005 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Monk
07-20-2005 10:28 PM


Re: Dems: What....? Rove's not dead yet? "We got the rope right here!"
Monk writes me:
quote:
You are implying that a member of Bush’s staff has done something illegal and that just hasn’t been shown.
No I'm not, I'm just complimenting Bush on his high ethical and moral standards. I think it's just marvelous how he won't let any convicted criminals work at the White House.
quote:
He knew what was going on, he knew illegal activity had been committed and still tried to cover it up. I wouldn’t hold Nixon up as a paragon of virtue.
And you know damned well that's not what I was doing. I was using Nixon as an examplar of our current president's high ethical and moral standards.
quote:
...Reagan didn’t fire Ollie North until after North testified to the House Intelligence Committee and after Reagan finds out about North’s diversion of funds to the Contra’s which meant that North lied to the Committee.
Exactly! Once there was no question that North had lied, he was gone. That demonstrates that Reagan had a different moral and ethical standard, one to which Bush shows no signs of ascribing.
quote:
After that, how will Bush explain the firing of Rove without knowing all the facts?
Because either Rove lied alone, or he and Bush both lied. Either way, Rove's a liar. No question about it. He's said directly that he was not involved in the leaking of Valerie Plame. You can parse the words all you want, but any thinking person knows now that Rove intended to mislead, which is what you do when you lie.
There is no question that Rove was involved in the outing of Plame. Whether he was the first to talk the press doesn't matter. So far, his best defense seems to be that he didn't use her name, which is specious, or that he was just repeating what he'd heard. In that case, he's a gossip. I think the president could somehow get people to understand that he just doesn't want any lying gossips working in his administration, but apparently his ethical and moral standards don't run quite that high.

"I think younger workers first of all, younger workers have been promised benefits the government promises that have been promised, benefits that we can't keep. That's just the way it is." George W. Bush, May 4, 2005

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Monk, posted 07-20-2005 10:28 PM Monk has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Tal, posted 07-21-2005 6:58 AM berberry has replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 161 of 271 (225088)
07-21-2005 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Tal
07-21-2005 6:58 AM


Rove's gossip and Bush's low moral standards
Tal writes me:
quote:
How about that tincy, wincy thing called proof? Innocent until proven guilty?
If, like the president, you only care whether a crime was committed then we will have to wait for proof, but like I've said earlier I'm not looking for Rove to be convicted of a crime. Which is good for him since the president has such appallingly low ethical and moral standards that all he requires of his employees is that they remain unconvicted of any crimes.
But my point was, and you already knew this, that we know beyond question that Rove lied. Two years ago, Scott McLellan said he had spoken with Rove and that Rove assured him that he wasn't involved in the Plame leak. There is now no question that Rove was indeed involved, so either Rove is a liar or McLellan is a liar. Rove's best defense so far is that he was just spreading gossip about a CIA agent.
So we know he's a gossip and we know that either he or McLellan is a liar (I misstated earlier that it was either Rove or the president - my bad). My money is on Rove as the liar, but given that he's an avowed gossipmonger I don't see why it's necessary to wait until he's convicted of a crime before Bush should get rid of him. Spreading gossip about CIA agents is bad enough to warrant his dismissal, but of course the president is more concerned about maintaining his appallingly low ethical and moral standards, so I think Rove is entirely safe, at least for now.

"I think younger workers first of all, younger workers have been promised benefits the government promises that have been promised, benefits that we can't keep. That's just the way it is." George W. Bush, May 4, 2005

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Tal, posted 07-21-2005 6:58 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Tal, posted 07-21-2005 9:39 AM berberry has replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 164 of 271 (225096)
07-21-2005 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Tal
07-21-2005 9:39 AM


Re: Rove's gossip and Bush's low moral standards
Tal writes me:
quote:
Again, you DO NOT KNOW if Rove leaked a name!!!!!
Goddamn it Tal, either read my posts or shut the hell up! For the fourth or fifth time, I AM NOT IMPLYING THAT ROVE BROKE A LAW, NOR THAT HE WILL EVER BE CONVICTED OF ANYTHING. What I am saying (and I didn't think this needed to be spelled out in easy words, but since it seems to have gone over your head for three! successive! posts!) is that the president ought to have higher standards than a mere requirement that members of his staff not be convicted criminals.
And this issue of whether or not Rove gave the specific name is specious. In order to insure that this point doesn't escape you, let's take a hypothetical illustration: Assume for a moment that Valerie Plame was an undercover agent with the highest security clearances and the absolute maximum possible secrecy that can be applied. Let's assume further that she was working in concert with the Bush administration, uncovering positive evidence of WMD. Let's say that her evidence was upsetting to Ted Kennedy since he had been publicly skeptical of earlier intelligence, and in a fit of pique he stands up in the Senate and, with C-SPAN cameras rolling, identifies her as an undercover agent, but only refers to her as "Joe Wilson's wife".
If that had happened, there would be no question that Ted Kennedy had outed her, regardless of whether he'd got the information from a classified memo or from a National Inquirer reporter. Why is there any question about Rove?
I don't need to supply a direct quote of what McLellan said at a press conference in July of 2003. It's been all over the media. He characterized as "ridiculous" the notion that Rove was in any way involved in the Plame outing, citing his own conversations with Rove. The Washington Post mentioned that fact just the other day in this article right here. It's also been printed in newspapers and the video from the old press conference ran on TV repeatedly last week.

"I think younger workers first of all, younger workers have been promised benefits the government promises that have been promised, benefits that we can't keep. That's just the way it is." George W. Bush, May 4, 2005

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Tal, posted 07-21-2005 9:39 AM Tal has not replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 180 of 271 (226014)
07-24-2005 6:05 PM


Featuring Alberto Gonzales in the role of Rosemary Wood
Everyone's been making comparisons to Watergate, even calling this scandal RoveGate. Well, now this scandal has its very own gap, only this time it's not just 18 minutes, it's a whole 12 hours!:
As White House counsel, he was the one first notified that the Justice Department, at the request of the C.I.A., had opened an investigation into the outing of Joseph Wilson's wife. That notification came at 8:30 p.m. on Sept. 29, 2003, but it took Mr. Gonzales 12 more hours to inform the White House staff that it must "preserve all materials" relevant to the investigation. This 12-hour delay, he has said, was sanctioned by the Justice Department, but since the department was then run by John Ashcroft, a Bush loyalist who refused to recuse himself from the Plame case, inquiring Senate Democrats would examine this 12-hour delay as closely as an 18-minute tape gap. "Every good prosecutor knows that any delay could give a culprit time to destroy the evidence," said Senator Charles Schumer, correctly, back when the missing 12 hours was first revealed almost two years ago. A new Gonzales confirmation process now would have quickly devolved into a neo-Watergate hearing. Mr. Gonzales was in the thick of the Plame investigation, all told, for 16 months.
Gonzales was on CBS' Face The Nation this morning. He dug his hole a bit deeper by revealing that the "only" administration staffer he notified that evening, 12 hours before sending out the official notice, was Andy Card.
Hmmmmmmm...

"I think younger workers first of all, younger workers have been promised benefits the government promises that have been promised, benefits that we can't keep. That's just the way it is." George W. Bush, May 4, 2005

Replies to this message:
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