We are the gods..

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Originally posted by allen:
You are living in what he already has done..

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I thought it was Allah.... no, Shiva... no, that's not it, Marduk.... wait, no, Ra .... hang on, Tagaloa .... oops, sorry, Pan Gu.... Great Spirit, Tu-Chia-pai, Pele, Unkulunkulu, Bumba........------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

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there is no confusion as to who created the heaven and the earth..it is shown in the first verse in the bible.

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Good grief.....Don't you get it? An appeal to the Bible is meaningless to me.

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Later if you decide to read the bible, you will find that the son of God is Jesus.

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You assume that I haven't read the Bible. I have-- four times end to end during my adult life and I had unmeasurable exposure during my childhood-- church three time a week, Bible classes, youth groups, retreats.

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Yes God has a son.

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Virtually every god on the planet has a son.

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... open your mind ...

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Are you trying to hypnotise me?

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Now begin your journey as if you were there watching events unfold... because you can

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But I am not. It is a book, just a BOOK!

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just assume you can accept what is written..it will be a start. Unfold your mind...

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You are getting sleepy.... sleepy.....

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try reading it cover to cover...

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oops, beat you to it.

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try to understand...

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It gets more absurd the more I read it.

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but you Must keep reading, because some of your questions are later explained as you read on in the bible...

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And the answers are meaningless if the book is just another book of mythology, which it is.

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now if you can't read the bible, then you cannot know the truth it is presenting you...

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Assuming the veracity of the Bible...

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while reading the bible, pray to God who created all, and ask Him for guidence and knowledge and understanding...

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Really, you just don't get it.

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so now you know that not only is the bible a historical read of actual events that unfolded before mans time

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Nope, sorry, I don't know this.

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but it also shows us the spiritual world that does exist out there..

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No more so than any other book of mythology.

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and i believe the bible is the true word of mankinds creator >>God.-

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Don't care at all what you believe. Your belief isn't evidence.

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The bible does not say God has a second name..just God.

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You don't know your bible very well. God, just God, actually goes by many different names. Ever read it in HEBREW?Skipping the personnal witnessing.

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The bible is a wonderful read...

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If one likes slaughter, rape, slavery, misogyny, cruelty, vicious injustice.... but actually, for such like DeSade is much more fun.

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dont argue..just read.

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Shutting brain of now.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

quote:

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Originally posted by Quetzal:
Andya:

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[why am i involved in this?]

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​

Glutton for punishment?

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I certainly am, it seems.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

quote:

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Originally posted by allen:
john.. i visited your site you left on your last post, and i dont want to make a cruel comment...

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Comment if you want. But you won't.

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which tells me only one thing...you dont believe cration..you dont believe in God...

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Yeah, I knew that.

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and you're trying to find some reasoning to your spiritual delema...

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My God, the arrogance is just dizzy-ing!!! The myopia... What you see is someone who has spent the better part of his life obsessed with the same issues, I wager, that you spend your time contemplating. AND I disagree with you. I have reason for every point of contention I hold.

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and that the works written on that link are part of your thought process...

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The parts I wrote, yes.

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you have fallen to your own bewilderment on anything spiritual...

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And you know this about me how?

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you seem to be filling your mind with the waste of useless words that abound in someone elses though process

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And believing a book written by an Israelite Priesthood 2.5-3 thousand years ago isn't filling your mind with someone else's thoughts? Please...

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which tells me you have not yet found the truth to anything spiritual.

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Again, the arrogance..... Not your beliefs == not true. Come down off of that pedastal and come up with something substantial. [quote][b]you seem to be wearing your rain shoes puddle hopping from someone elses
beliefs[/quote][/b]You seem to be throwing a lot of stones based on your assumptions of me.

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and it appears to me you are very confused in anything you believe...

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And I always will be confused until I agree with you, right? How did you become the final judge of truth? Snide.... fine, but deadly serious. Why should I believe you? Simple, direct question. Why should I believe you? [quote][b]which is a good thing in that you are searching for the truth. [/quote][/b]Sadly you are not, if you were you might find it within yourself to actualy discuss something instead of insisting, preaching, condescending and dismissing.

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Jesus said: Seek and ye shall find...

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No problem with that one.

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so keep seeking john...

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Yes father....

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you will find the truth someday..after you have come to the end of your reasoning, then will you assess the findings of your ventures, and choose your belief...

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I have chosen my belief. But unlike yourself, if I may extrapolate from your posts thus far, my beliefs are mutable and vary with evidence. Your beliefs are set in stone and nothing, however reasonable, will sway you from your steady course.

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The bible tells us :to seek Jesus first...test him that he may show you the truth...and he will show you he is the true god...

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Believe first, ask questions later. Why does this not seem backwards to you?

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I just have this last thing to say to you John...this post is not here to offend you in any way..

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Perhaps you should work on your presentation. Speaking to me as I were a child and you my mentor is terrible offensive.

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i was also at this point in my life...but there comes a time to choose...i think you are about to that point....

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.... condescending ....

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...not are you avoiding the topic of creation vs evolution...

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What?

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lol you keep leaving me links and sentences about how you are not convenced of a true god that exists.

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Right and you are providing me with no reason to believe otherwise. Really, all I need is evidence. Where is it?

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he said to SEARCH the scriptures that he may show you proof that he is who he is, and has done what he has done for you personally

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Look, if you want to search the scriptures, then pick something and lets analyze it. You see the word of GOD, I see a chaotic mess of contradiction, violence and horror. Prove me wrong. I dare ya.

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NOW IF YOU READ THE BIBLE 4 times and once in hebrew, i simply cannot believe you took it in...(as truth)

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Right because I came to a very different conclusion than you. Can you see the pretension?

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..because when i read it i got excited that there is a God that forgives all who come to him..open arms.. he forgives our sins .he forgets our sins..he is a forgiving God..and i personally cannot believe that if someone comes to Jesus for forgiveness that Jesus wouldnt forgive them..because Jesus went to hell where we sinners should be for our sins.. Jesus paid for our sins by dying on the cross..were we should have been.

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Have you any ideas how many similar tales there are in world mythology? Why chose your over those?

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im writting this john because you are hinting to me to answer your real question..and that is about the salvation that Jesus offers all men.

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ummmmmmm....... no. My real question is "Why should I believe your mythology over any other mythology when none of them have any demonstrable merit beyond the socio-political?"

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That you are confused about a God that seems cruel, unjust , mean,and allows injustice to abound..you are sooooooo so wrong...

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Then give me reason to believe otherwise. So far you've done no better than "because I said so' and the ever popular and ever circular 'the bible is true because it says its true."

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You did not read the bible john...you flew thru it in a pissy manner..seeking the bad ,the ugly..

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Why do you think you can get inside my head?

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and the wrong that was used to show you that the end result of these acts are hell.

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Back this up. I know you must be itching to quote something.

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Read it again john..this time read it like your life depends on its message

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You'll never believe me, but I did. I was raised christian. One day I realized that it does no good to believe if you believe the wrong thing. So I started searching, thinking the truth would shine. It didn't. And doesn't.

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HEY I DONT WANT TO BE IN THAT SINKING BOAT...

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Exactly my thoughts as well. But I have sense enough to realize that not every boat that CLAIMS to be the right one, actually is the right one. This boat leaks like a seive.

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i amd sure you dont want to be...so try it again.. this time..read the bible like God was doing something great for you..because all men deserve the lake of fire because of sin. we are born in sin, and untill we come to Jesus for forgivness, we could die in our sin without that forgiveness, and end in the lake of fire for eternity.. how do i know this.. God said so in the bible..in his word.. i choose to believe it...why.. because i do not want to go to hell.. it is the hope i have in what Jesus did for me.

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This is meaningless unless one already believes.I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE> the word of God.. i choose to believe he created the heaven and the earth.. its sad to hear people reject Jesus and his forgiving power..He is such a forgiving God..he is so giving, that he GIVES us the POWER to become his children. He lets us CHOOSE or reject him because he didnt create us as a slave.[/b][/quote]What you believe is fine by me, but why should I take your word for it?

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Who God sets free, is free indeed.. Jesus came to give us life, and to give it abundantly.HE CREATED/HE CAUSES US TO COME TO HIM/..satan is a liar..he comes like a lion seeking whom he can devoure...satan knows his destination is gate: HELL. Jesus is our judge for what we do here on earth and he is the rewarder of thoes who love him. Jesus is so just, that he must judge sin..and reward thoes who love him...he is only offering you a way back to him... and a way from being cast into hell for eternity if one chooses to reject him.. now there is no other god before him..those who choose other gods will be judged .

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MEANINGLESS UNLESS ONE ALREADY BELIEVES.

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because i DO HAVE PROOF HE CREATED ALL.

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Really, great... lets have it.

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I have the bible that he wrote..

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Nope, that's not it. You don't know your bible very well, or history for that matter.

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this is the topic i started on , but i felt i had to address your posted concerens, because that is what i was reading that you were hinting to me..that you needed some light to the confusion you are having in your decision makeing...

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This is insane.

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I TELL YOU THIS JOHN. choose Jesus...

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halle- freaking -luyah!!!!!

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what if it is true...you know..what if it is really true...common you know what i am talking about john..

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Pascal's wagar is flawed on so very many levels. You wanna talk. Take me up on it.

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what if the bible is true...you read it four times remember...what if there is a hell and a heaven...what if one day Jesus does return and judgement starts..and hell is real and many unbelievers are cast into hell for eternity john...what if...i know i dont want to go there.. so Jesus and what he did for me is all the hope i have...BUT IF THE : WHAT IF is true...

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What if it isn't? Even worse, what if you've chosen the wrong GOD? So far you've given me nothing but scripture. There are lots of scriptures out there. Suppose one of them is right, then we are both damned. This is the major flaw with Pascal's wager-- false dicotomy.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

quote:

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Originally posted by allen:
anydya..
that post was for john...

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This is an open forum, Allen. Expect responses from anyone interested.Besides which, Andya is well worth a listen.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

quote:

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Originally posted by degreed:
John, i'm interested in your site. Do you mind discussing some of your points in a little more depth?

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Not at all.1. "Focus on the trivial".I agree with you, actually. That these things are not related to a person's worth and/or spiritual life is exactly the point. And, yes, it is sad that I have encountered these reactions from all but a very few Christians

quote:

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2. "Good deeds are pointless...All that is required to enter heaven is a confession of faith..."

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However, belief in Jesus and forgiveness of sins should not be construed as a license to act in any fashion b/c forgiveness is expected at a later date.

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Agreed, again. You have made very much the argument I will eventually make once I get around to elaborating upon the content of that page. Of course, my arguments will not be from the point of view of a Christian. My take on the matter is that doctrines such as this one undercut personnal responsibility for one's actions. I have heard this case made point blank by Christians on too many occasions to count.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

quote:

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Originally posted by degreed:
One of my favorite passages is "judge a tree by the fruit that it bears". That's God's polite way of saying "you're smart enough to know that if it stinks, it's probably shit".

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I like this one too. And the body of Christ smells pretty rancid.

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If God did create the universe, as the Bible claims, then He needs to exist outside of the dimensions that make up the universe.

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Same argument works for pretty much any creator god, yes?

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This is also referenced throughout the Bible as God says that He "was and is and is to come".

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Can you cite some verses? I know I have seen something similar but I can't find it.

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But the slowly developing point is that the Bible notes that forgiveness is only granted to those who truly repent of their wrongs and truly attempt to pursue a relationship with Jesus.

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There are verses in the Bible which suggest otherwise. Halcyonwaters, on this forum, has been discussing this point with me. HW takes the opposite view than you.

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The difference, to me, is that i'm not required by God to be religious (i can't stand religion).

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It seems likely to me that this is representative of the early church, though its hard to say with certainty.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com[This message has been edited by John, 08-19-2002]

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Originally posted by Tokyojim:
Using power to impose Islam on others seems to be OK since it is commonly done, but Christianity is different.

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Did I read this right?------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Originally posted by Mammuthus:
This should have read:

​

SOME religious people have no standards to appeal to.....

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I don't think all religious people are as bigoted and arrogant in their worldviews as TJ. Plenty of relgious people have very nice Personal standards....just like plenty non-religious people.

​

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Respectfully, I think your first formulation is correct.Plenty of religious people have great personal standards, but wasn't the point that due to the fact that books must be interpretted the claim to absolute moral standards is false?------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Originally posted by Percipient:
I started reading your post and would like to finish it, but I had to stop because I kept losing track of who said what. If you get a chance to make it more clear I'd like to come back and read this some time.

​

--Percy

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Same here.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

[QUOTE][b]You are right in saying that Darwinfs COUSIN, Francis Galton was the originator of the word eugenics. I wonder where he got that idea from! From the theory of evolution of course.[/quote][/b]I wonder where Hitler the idea of Christianity!!!!! From the Christians, of course.See how silly the argument is, TJ?

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Who has final say on the right interpretation of evolution to life today?

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No one person. Science doesn't work that way.

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If certain races are more evolved than others, then they could be considered to be superior, could they not?

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There is no such thing as 'more evolved' There is 'better adapted to a particular environment than ....' but this isn't the same thing. More specialized organism only have the advantage until conditions changed. Then they are at a BIG disadvantage. The less specialized come out on top as the less specialized are more flexible though less efficient.

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Of course, today, science has finally caught up with the Bible on this and they recognize that all humans are related and extremely close genetically.

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What? The Bible says no such thing.

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Now science agrees that racism is foolishness and unscientific, but that was not true back then.

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Really? Have you read the Old Testament? It is full of genocide and injucntions against inter-marriage with non-Isrealites. Sounds pretty racist to me and sounds like a program of eugenics to boot.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

quote:

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Originally posted by Tokyojim:
John's reply:
I wonder where Hitler the idea of Christianity!!!!! From the Christians, of course.

​

See how silly the argument is, TJ?

---

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I think guys that if you haven't gotten it yet, we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this issue of Hitler being a Christian.

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TJ, it doesn't matter if Hitler was a Christian or not. He used the idea of Christianity for his own purposes whether sincerely or deceitfully. This is exactly what people have done with the ToE. The idea has been used to draw unwarranted conclusions. You feel perfectly comfortable criticising the ToE because it has been mis-used, but you do not want Christianity criticised because it has been mis-used. This is a double standard.

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John, sorry, No, I don't quite see how silly the argument is.

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It is a double standard, as I have explained. I find that funny Sorry, strange since of humor.

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Certainly we can't say that Darwin is responsible for eugenics.

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You may as well say it. This is the teeth of your argument. Without this inference, what is left of the criticism of Darwin? "Darwin was wrong" hmmmm..... not terribly wicked.

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But many of his unscientific ideas led to this idea.

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First, you need to support the claim that his ideas were unscientific.Secondly, most anything can lead to unpleasant consequences. You could blaim Einstein for the atomic bomb, or Spanish ship builders in the 1400s for the deaths of countless American Indians, or Chinese fireworks makers for the death and destruction caused by firearms, or Jung for new-age pop psychology.....

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Why are you so concerned about genocide?

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Didn't say I was concerned actually. [quote][b]There is no ultimate right and wrong, so you cannot say it is wrong.[/quote][/b]And you, TJ, is there an ultimate right and wrong? I dare you to find one.

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You can only say you are against it personally and that most people are against it. But it isn't wrong in the ultimate sense.

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I could say that it makes no sense. This is a rational decision and one I could defend, but for the sake of the topic, I won't.

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You speak about it as if you think it is wrong for every man and woman who every lived.

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Did I now? I don't remember saying anything of the sort. That makes your statement an unwarranted conclusion whether I believe the statement or not.

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When you take God out of the equation, you open up the door for all sorts of problems.

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God has been in the equation since the dawn of recorded history and the tale is pretty bloody.

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As far as Hitler goes, can you name a Christian who taught him to live like he did?

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Try reading the Old Testament, TJ.

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He was influenced by Darwin and simply made the logical step of applying the philosophical implications of Darwinism to life.

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Again, try reading the Bible. Racism is part and parcel of what it meant to be an Isrealite.

quote:

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John's reply:
No one person. Science doesn't work that way.

​

TJ replies:
Exactly my point. So who is to say that Galton and his ideas of eugenics(taking natural selection one step higher and making it intelligent selection rather than letting things up to chance.) Why is that wrong? Why is that not permissable under Darwin's theory? Why did Darwin himself never say anything against it?

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You have completely missed the point. Science is based on evidence. That evidence is interpretted by thousands of researchers, not by one. The consensus of opinion determines the corect interpretation-- always tentatively and dependant upon current knowledge.

quote:

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TJ's original quote:
If certain races are more evolved than others, then they could be considered to be superior, could they not?

​

John's reply:
There is no such thing as 'more evolved' There is 'better adapted to a particular environment than ....' but this isn't the same thing. More specialized organism only have the advantage until conditions changed. Then they are at a BIG disadvantage. The less specialized come out on top as the less specialized are more flexible though less efficient.

​

TJ's reply to J's reply:
John, I don't even believe in evolution so don't tell that to me. Tell that to Darwin and his cronies. Tell that to the Australians who used that argument to try and help the evolutionary process out by getting rid of the aborigines who were viewed as a lower less evolved race. Tell that to Hitler. As I quoted in my first post: In the 1933 Nuremberg party rally, Hitler proclaimed that ehigher race subjects to itself a lower race ca right which we see in nature and which can be regarded as the sole conceivable right,. Tenenbaum, J., Race and Reich, Twayne Pub., New York, p. 211, 1956.

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Struck a nerve?What is this outburst about? You don't need to believe evolution to understand how it is supposed to work.Yeah, Hitler believed in higher and lower races. That isn't the point. Evolution does not work that way, hence Hitler WAS NOT USING EVOLUTION. Why is that so hard to grasp?

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Of course there is no such thing as more evolved, but that is not what the scientists of Darwin's time believed.

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Some scientists.... Besides, you have your causality wrong. Racism existed long before Darwin and was quite widely accepted as fact. The scientists were not converted by Darwin, they just went on believing what they had always believed. Some used Darwin's theory to justify that belief.

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It might be temperorily beneficial, but when the environment changes again, evolution stops and extinction ensues - unless there are other less adapted organisms to mate with through which the necessary genetic information can again be recovered.

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This is a mis-representation of the process. The organisms that cannot survive don't survive, they don't mate with "less specialized creature to regain genetic information" The organisms that can survive, move in and take over. Simple.

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Of course, not in those words. What it does say is that all men are descended from a common ancestor Adam and Eve, and then from Noah and his family. We are all humans from the very beginning. So of course we are all closely genetically related! What I said was simply a logical deduction from the teaching of the Bible. Sorry I wasn't clear on that.

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umm..... what about all of that "thou shalt not mate with foreigners stuff...?"

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TJ replies:
Yes, you bring up a difficult point here, but you didn't address my argument. Let me address yours: God prohibited inter-marriage by the Israelites not because He is racist, but because He wanted to preserve their special relationship with Him.

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gee.... that isn't racist? It seems to fit the definition.

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Genocide? Yes, some would call it that. The Bible speaks of it as judgment against sin.

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quote:

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Back to God's judgments against surrounding nations. These are not just off the cuff impulses to wipe out a certain people. These were idolatrous people who lived wicked lives. God had warned them for hundreds of years about their sin and they refused to repent.

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Right. And God did the punishing himself? Nope. Hordes of sword wielding Isrealites killed, raped and pillaged in the name of God. How do we know God told them? We don't. And neither did they. A priest or a King told them it was God's will. Hi ho! hi ho! its off to war we go. Just like in the case of Adolf.

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This would take a bit longer to really answer and I would need to give you some specific Biblical references to back up what I am saying. I will do that if you would like to, but I doubt you are that interested or that it would make a difference in what you think.

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Verify the Bible as a source first, then I'll listen. You guys always seem to forget this necessary logical step.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

quote:

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Originally posted by Tokyojim:
It enabled people to live their lives how they want to without feeling guilty because of it's obvious implications for life.

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You have a really warped perception of non-Christians.

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As I mentioned before, the idea of no god and no ultimate right and wrong can be quite dangerous.

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As I have pointed out, the IDEA of God has been around for all of recorded history and the tale is pretty bloody. It seems to me that the evidence is that the IDEA of God is pretty damned dangerous.

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It encourages scientists to, for instance, do research on stem cells even though it means killing many fertilized cells.

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I'm skipping this. It belongs in another thread.

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In an a-moral world, how do we control scientists?

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Right... because scientist are all Hollywoodesque Dr. Moreau mad-man types. Try getting a grip on your mis-perception of non-Christians.

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TJ replies: Not in so many words, but you are speaking as if genocide is a bad immoral thing. What is your basis for that moral judgment?

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Eugenics is selection for traits without knowing which traits will eventually be useful. Hence, it makes no sense.

quote:

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TJ replies: John, at least I think you see the problem here. You want an example of absolute morality? Try this: How about torturing babies? Do you know of any cultures that think this is a moral act? (Actually it seems it is legal in America right now with the partial birth abortions. Bad example.)

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Your phrasing abortion as 'torture' is misleading. What you want to ask is whether I know of any cultures who consider abortion/infanticide to be a moral act. Yes. Numerous cultures have taken this stance. The Spartans for one.

quote:

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Well, how about rape? Do you know of any culture that thinks this is a moral act?

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Yanomamo. oh.... and the ancient Isrealites as long as 1) the victim wasn't an isrealite, 2) you married the victim in the aftermath, 3)certain special circumstances apply-- such as in the case of Lot and the angels.

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Rape is wrong no matter what. Why? Because it hurts someone else?

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You need to read your Bible.

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then you have just proven my point about how dangerous it is when we leave God out of the picture.

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Why is it dangerous to leave God out of the picture when with God in the picture it is sometimes OK?

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JOHN: God has been in the equation since the dawn of recorded history and the tale is pretty bloody.

​

TJ replies: Sorry, but you can't blame God for the evil choices of humans.

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This knee-jerk reaction is sidestepping the issue. I did not say that God is responsible. I said that God-- the idea of God-- has been in the equation all along and that the result has been pretty nasty.

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JOHN: Try reading the Old Testament, TJ.

​

TJ replies: Sorry, John, your analogy fails. The OT never tells us to go out and do what Hitler did.

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Don't tell me that you have read the OT and missed all the conquest, murder and kidnapping?Please, TJ, don't play dumb.

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Besides, the OT has been superceded by the NT and Jesus tells us clearly to love our enemies.

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Then why not ditch the OT?

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You will never find a general command given to people anywhere to go out and murder.

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I was going to post some verses for you but why bother? You are aware of precisely what you deny.

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God did order the Israelites at times to go out and destroy the idolatrous nations around them especially when conquering the Promised Land, but that was a specific command for a specific occasion.

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quote:

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You find "Thou shalt not kill." in the Bible many times, but you never find the command "Thou shalt kill." (except for sins that deserve capitol punishment.)

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Right... like a woman's deserving death for touching a man's pee-pee during a fight.Or, obviously, a rape victim not crying out loudly enough. Deut. 22:23-24.

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TJ replies: Let's see, which part would you be talking about?

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Well, there is Numbers 31:9, 31:32-36.

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The part that tells us that we are all created in God's image and have worth?

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I was thinking more about how the Isrealites pretty much get to kill, rape and pillage at will and with God's blessing. It doesn't speek much for the theory that we are all equal and have worth.

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They were guilty of racism at times as we Gentiles have been as well. However, it never comes as an order from God.

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Like bloody hell! The OT is full of orders from God to kill other peoples. Ex. 23:24, 34:11-14, Num. 21:1-5.

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When Christians use the Bible to justify racism, they are sinning and bringing shame on the name of God.

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How do you breathe with your head under so much sand?

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So who is to say that Galton and his ideas of eugenics(taking natural selection one step higher and making it intelligent selection rather than letting things up to chance.

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I've covered this.

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Evidence is interpreted by fallible biased people.

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Funny thing, the Bible is interpretted by fallible people too. So would you like to retract the objection or shall I dismiss your religion-- with your blessing-- based on the same grounds?

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That is the problem with science. Everyone wants us to believe that scientists are these unbiased people seeking truth and that their conclusions are always trustworthy.

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Only creationists push this characature of science. Scientist know damn well that scientists are biased and fallible. This is why science must be reproducible and conclusions testable. Different people, different biases, same answer--- well gee, maybe it is true.

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If scientists would have enough courage and honesty to say that, we would be getting somewhere.

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LOL..... ask a scientist!!!!!!

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It is always tentative and dependent upon current knowledge as you said.

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'k

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That is all we want to hear in the science classroom.

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If that is all you want, I have no problem; but I bet you want more than that. I'd bet that you want to include theories for which there is no evidence. [quote][b]TJ replies: No it is not so simple. Let's take a group oof Great Danes..... But if small size were to suddently be an advantage for survival, this species of dog would go extinct.[quote][b]Exactly what I said.

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Breeders can through selective breeding create many things, but their creations are always limited by the genetic information they have to work with.

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Breeders are not working with time-frames of millions of years, and ten's of thousands of generations.

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This is the biggest problem with evolution.

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This is the biggest problem with the cartoon creationist version of evolution. Thankfully, that isn't the ToE. Here is an experiment-- difficult but not impossible. Take two dogs and sequence their DNA. Breed the two. Sequence the DNA of the pups and check for mutations. Wham-bam!!!! There is the new genetic material.

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You can never get something in an offspring that you do not have in the genetic code of the parents.

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Patently false. See above.

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TJ replies: I understand your feelings. God's plan for the Jewish people was to reveal Himself to the surrounding nations through them. He promised to bless them and to bless others through them as well if they would follow Him. It was important that they didn't get led astray into idolatry and other sins that the surrounding nations practiced. God knew that if they were to intermarry there would be a negative result spiritually on the Jews and this is why He forbid intermarriage. Even in the NT, Christians are not supposed to marry non-christians. This is not racist. This is simply for the benefit of the family. Having similar values and goals in life helps a lot in a marriage. Plus if the parents have different ideas about spiritual things, then whose ideas do you teach your kids? I would never have married a non-christian because as parents, it is important for us to be united in child-rearing concerns. I wouldn't want my kids to have to choose between Mommy and Daddy which is how it could be conceived. This is for the kid's own best interests as well. It just so happened that in the OT, the only believers in God were the Israelites and that is why they could only marry each other.

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Really, you have just given a nice pro-racist sermonette.

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TJ replies: John, I know you can never accept what the Bible says at face value so nothing I say can persuade you.

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Sure there is, theoretically.

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How did they know it was really God who spoke to them? Because He spoke through the prophets.

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And we know the prophet were no lying or tripping becasue they said so? You have got to joking.

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First of all, if ever the words of a prophet did not come true, then it was clear that that prophet had not spoken the word of God and actually he was to be put to death.

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Lots 'o prophets spoke falsely.

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There were also various miracles that took place from time to time that gave further confirmation to them that God had indeed spoken and was leading them.

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Or so says a book for which we have no external verification of its accuracy. Many religious texts claim miracles. You believe all of them I suppose?

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Oh, that's right. Miracles can't happen.

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More like, miracles don't happen. Miracles conveniently stopped happening at some point in the distant magical past.

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TJ replies: John, if I thought you were honestly seeking the truth

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And how did you come to the conclusion that I am not?

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You have heard all the arguments I'm sure.

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Yeah, and unless you have something new, they are all crap. Otherwise, I'd be on your side.

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I'm sure you have an answer for each one of them so it would just be a waste of time to discuss it.

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I thought you were honestly searching for the truth?

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I am making perhaps an unwarranted assumption here

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No kidding.

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it is not so much an intellectual problem that people have when it comes to being a Christian, rather it is a heart problem.

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I'm deleting the sermon.

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Arguing for the sake of arguing to see who can outdo the other is not productive.

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I thought you were honestly searching for the truth?------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Originally posted by Tokyojim:
TJ replies: John, if a person is looking for such an excuse, evolution presents a perfect one for them.

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So does God's Will... and that has been used as an excuse since the beginning of recorded history.

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TJ replies: The existence of God is only helpful if people believe it and voluntarily decide to submit their lives to Him.

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You seem to be saying that the idea of evolution is respoinsible for bad behavior, but that the same criterion cannot be applied to the idea of God. This is a double standard.

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TJ replies: Skip it but nevertheless, it shows the problem we have if there is no absolute moral law.

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There is no absolute moral law anyway, despite the claims of religion to the contrary. Why? Because people simply incorporate their whims into their faith.

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It is worth it for the sake of science. Science becomes the authority.

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This reflects your perception of non-christians. You contrast faith-inspired behavior with a straw man version of non-faith-inspired behavior.

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However, don't tell me that you are willing to trust scientists to make good moral choices in their research. There needs to be some kind of check on them or SOME will go astray.

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You are right. Some checks need to be in place, depending on the research.

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TJ replies: Oh, so if you could come up with some way to make scientific sense of it, it would be OK.

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What you are asking me is "If it made sense, would it be OK?" [quote][b]Everything is relative.[/quote][/b]It always has been. Denying this doesn't change anything and tagging the sanction of God onto an opinion only makes the relative more dangerous.

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Someday someone will come us with just such an idea and then what. Or technology will improve to the point where we will be able to do that and then what?

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Remember, the discussion is about faith-based morality vs. non-faith-based morality. It is not about finding the extremes of behavior.

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Even now, we know that certain traits are harmful so why not try and get rid of them. (Down's Syndrome, retardation, etc.)

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You missed my point. What is not beneficial now, may be beneficial in the future. We simply don't know. Even Down's Syndrome, or some further mutation of the genes involved could be beneficial, or some genes associated with it but not responsible for the disabling conditions associated with it. The best example of what I thinking about is sickle cell anemia. It is crippling and eventually lethal, but provides a survival advantage in areas infested with sleeping sickness.

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How about we leave abortion out of it and make the issue purposeful inflcting of pain on babies?

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Actually, ours condones the purposeful infliction of pain on babies. It is called circumcision.

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Do you know of any cultures where this is thought to be a moral act?

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The Isrealites, who got it from the Egyptians, and passed it along to us.

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I don't and I don't think you will find one.

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It wasn't that hard.

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And just because some cultures practiced infanticide doesn't mean that they really thought it was a moral act.

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Really? I suspect some term re-definition goin on here.

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TJ replies: Don't know anything about the Yanomamo. Indians?

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Yes. South American indians. It is the largest group of S.A. Indians and probably the most studied tribe on the planet. They show up frequently in movies and even a PS2 commercial.

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And as I said above, I would doubt that these Indians really thought that this act was a moral act.

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Strange as it seems....

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It may have been practiced and tolerated, but I doubt the women thought it was a moral act.

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One study I read quoted a Yanamamo woman as saying "I am afraid my husband does not love me because he does not beat me enough" or something to that effect. I am going from memory.

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I'd like to read more about the Yanomamo.

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Interesting bunch. They are known as the Fierce People.

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However, it was never condoned or left unpunished. Marrying the victim in the aftermath was actually a punishment for the man. It made him take responsibility for his sin.

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Do you realy believe this? Ask a rape victim how fair this punishment is?

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Don't tell me he wanted to give his daughter to those men to rape. Where's your head at? He only did it to spare the angels who were sent from God from homosexual rape.

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Would the idea even cross your mind? Should I let my daughters be gang-raped.... hmmmmm.....? See what I mean about the idea of God not being the best guide for morality.[qutoe]Give the men the angels sent from God to be gang raped or give them his daughter.[/quote]How about give them neither and take a stand? Godless, faithless, evolutionist that I am, I'd consider myself as having no choice but that one.

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TJ replies: OK then I'll answer my question.

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TJ, the God of the OT isn't the God you describe.

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TJ replies: Did you cut out some of my post here?

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Probably, but I try not to edit the meaning.

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Plus it is not right even with God in the picture so your statement doesn't make sense.

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God and God's agents have ordered exactly the behaviors which God supposedly disaproves of. You can have it both ways.

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TJ replies: I dealt with this misguided statement above.

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And again you avoid the point. You make the claim that the idea of evolution is dangerous and that the idea of God keeps people in check. I am pointing out that that idea does not keep people in check.

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You can't blame all the blood and nastiness on Christians.

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I'm not blaming it on Christians. I am saying that the idea of God has not kept people in check.

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TJ replies: No way. The OT has a lot of value.

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Right. How else would we know from whom we can take slaves?

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It gives us a valuable historical record of human history.

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It is a mythological history of a tiny tribe of warlike nomads. It has value in being that I suppose.

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We learn much about God in the OT.

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He is nothing like God in the NT.

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We have a record of prophecies that validate Jesus as the Messiah.

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Actually.... I can't tell that Christ fits the genealogical requirements for being the messiah, as outlined in the OT.

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TJ replies: John, on the contrary. I am not aware of any general command that God gives to humans to go out and kill their fellow humans. Please go ahead and post them. Thanks.

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God consistently gives the command to conquer any people not like the Isrealites. It doesn't take a big leap to realize that if God, in the past, commanded HIS people to kill those not like them, the same rules apply today.

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TJ replies: John, you confuse judgement for sin and murder.

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I think you are confusing war and the consequent death, destruction and slavery with judgement-- perfectly illustrating how religion DOES NOT check human behavior.

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I'm not sure what you are talking about here, but I think you have twisted it a little to make it look foolish.

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Sorry, it isn't kill. It is 'cut off her hand' Duet. 25:11-12------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

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Originally posted by allen:
LOL.. Jews are God's chosen people blessed.

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Is this from a hymn perhaps? It has that hymnal twang.

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They have inherited the gifts given them by God.

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I don't recall God giving them any special gifts. He just beat them up a lot.

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They are using the gifts as blessings given them throughout the seeds of their forefathers.

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Perplexing... but I like the sound of it.

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You are just jealous that you are not the apple of God's eye.

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Of course, none of are... except the Jews of course.

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Spare me comparing the Jewish People to some murderous demon posessed fool who thought he could exit a mental ward to become some great man.

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The comparison fits. The Jewish People were, if you believe the mythology, every bit as murderous and vicious. Lets not forget about that Nazi state called Isreal.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com