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Author Topic:   Terrorism in London
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 313 (222612)
07-08-2005 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by CanadianSteve
07-08-2005 10:34 AM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
quote:
What motivated 9/11 was that the US was in the Islamists' way with respect to their plans to take over islamic nations. They thought they could scare the US out of the Middle East so they'd be freer to march on, as they had been.
And what motivated the invasion of Iraq was that Hussein was in the way of the US plans to exert control over international petroleum production. The US thought that they could scare the regimes of the middle east into being more conducive to US interests so they would be freer to march on.
I will at least admit my statement is rather simplistic, but it is a bit more accurate than yours.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-08-2005 10:34 AM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-08-2005 3:31 PM Chiroptera has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6473 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 47 of 313 (222614)
07-08-2005 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Chiroptera
07-08-2005 12:00 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
Arab intellectuals don't have a long history of speaking out against their governments because, first, many have supported their governments, and, second, those who did not had a long histiry of being imprisoned or murdered for speaking out. That is what is changing. Amir tehari, the iranian muslim intellectual and prolific writer has written about this in many columns.
(And Daniel pipes is very creditable, which is why prominet Muslim democrats work very closely with him, and express admiration of his work.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Chiroptera, posted 07-08-2005 12:00 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Chiroptera, posted 07-08-2005 6:04 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Meeb
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 313 (222619)
07-08-2005 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by CanadianSteve
07-08-2005 2:36 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
France and Germany, were doing likewise, and france was the main reason the UN did
Did what? You aren't making any sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-08-2005 2:36 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-08-2005 3:38 PM Meeb has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6473 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 49 of 313 (222628)
07-08-2005 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Silent H
07-08-2005 12:56 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
What the US is doing in Afghhanistan is wondeful, but insufficient. That is why iraq was necessary. Bear in mind that iraq is at the very heart of Arabia. What happens there is far more meaningful to Arabs than what happens in Afghanistan.
Why not invade Pakistan? First, because it is a nation of hundreds of millions and is a nuclear power. Second, because its government is amenable to a fair degree of cooperation with the US, and is, aside from the 5th columnists within, opposed to islamism. President musharraf has closed over 1,000 madrassahs and has separated Islamists from power. The best example is his removing Khan from the nuclear button, and in so doing also stopped him from continuing to disseminate nuclear tech to democracy's enemies. No, it's not perfect. The Islamists there are influential still and dangerous. But progress is happening. Of course, that is why the islamists have made several attempts to assassinate Musharraf.
You ask: "Why would it make sense at all to attack Iraq whose only criteria would be that it was a dictatorship?" Because Huseein gave many reasons to justify an invasion aside from being a brutal dictatorship, including that the US and britian would have had to maintain a permament, very expensive, no fly zone over the Kurdish region so that hussein wouldn't begin a genocide against the Kurds; because a Hussein shorn of sanctions was certain to regain atomic technology and this time complete his efforts at acquiring the bomb; because he would have invaded other oil producing nations again once he had the bomb, creating tremendous instability; because he was cooperating with islamists; because he would have passed some kind of suitcase bomb or worse onto the Islamists; and so on. Then there's that democracy needed to be brought to the ME as an alternative to military dictatorship and islamism, and iraq was the most logical place to start.
You doubt that germany, France and Russia were key players in the oil for food scandfal. Have you read Volker's report? Have you not seen that the UN has had no choice but to acknowledge that? No, not completely, but largely. This is simply fact, ugly as it is, and it explains why france and Russia refused to allow a vote in favour of the war. You should also consider that france has forged close ties to the Arab world for several reasons, one of which is to increase its geopolitical power vis a vis the US. How incredibly cynical: france for purely egotistical and short term interests allies itself with enemies of democracy.
As for Khan...yes, I'l like to see him face greater consequences. But he did not get off scott free: That he was removed from the button and can no longer disseminate nuclear tech is a very, very big deal. Musharraf is limited in what he can do as he works very carefully to separate the islamists from 5th column power positions. As I said, they're trying to kill him. Because they are everywhere in pakastani society, this is no simple or safe task. (Islamism is a huge global movement that permeates islamic societies everywhere, even in the US.)
The US did not help Hussein gas anyone; it was the germans that supplied the gas. Nor does the US condone wrong done in egypt and Saudi Arabia. Bush has radically changed US foreign policy. He has said many times, and Rice reiterated this In Egypt no less 2 weeks ago, that the age of the US supporting tyrannies for stability are passed. Rather, democracy is what the US demands. That created quite a stir in Egypt. And the US is applying pressure on both the egyptians and saudis. However, the US does not want to fight an all out war against all the Islamic world. It must choose its targets carefully, and accomplish as much as possible through diplomacy and pressure.
I was not suggesting the US deliberately drew the Islamists to iraq. But that is what happened as they realized that an iraqi democracy would be the beginning of their end. However, that has proved strategically helpful. No, that does not stop them from committing attacks elsewhere. but it sure makes it harder and limits their options.
binLaden once said that people are attracted to a "Strong horse." he meant that 9/11 proved his strength adn that of islamism, and, therefore, that would make that movement a greater draw for Muslims. he was right. But he was wrong about the US. he thought it would lose its will and withdraw. Instead, the paper tiger proved to be far more than that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Silent H, posted 07-08-2005 12:56 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by mick, posted 07-08-2005 4:12 PM CanadianSteve has replied
 Message 68 by Silent H, posted 07-08-2005 5:21 PM CanadianSteve has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6473 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 50 of 313 (222634)
07-08-2005 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Chiroptera
07-08-2005 12:48 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
of course they are not anywhere yet totally defeated. But they are less able to carry out attacks because of many reasons: One is that so much of their money and many of their soldiers are in iraq. Another is that their funding is weaker than it was. Were it not for Iraq, we'd be seeing far more terror from them.
I also believe they are afraid of attacking the US. They saw what happened after 9/11. They wonder what nation the US would attack next and convert to democracy if they commit more terror on US territory. In fact, I'd wager that most of the movement is furious with bin laden, because he exposed to the world their plans, and gave the US a chance to fight back long before they were ready. That is, had he not carried out 9/11, islamism would still have Afghanistan, the islamist 5th columnists would be more powerful (and Khan would still have his finger on pakastani bomb and be spreading the technology to islamic states), democracy would not have been introduced as a competing ideology in Afghan and Iraq, and they'd still be on the march. Instead they've been set back. Had they continued, they would have gradually seen islamic states fall to them. That would have created a nuclear armed, islamist empire, with an insane but totally convinced self-view as ordained by Allah to attack us all in an attempt to conquer, subjugate and convert to and rule all the world according Islam.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Chiroptera, posted 07-08-2005 12:48 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Chiroptera, posted 07-08-2005 6:11 PM CanadianSteve has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6473 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 51 of 313 (222637)
07-08-2005 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Chiroptera
07-08-2005 2:38 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
As you'd expect, i reject such conspiracies. the price of oil has shot to up to what?, three times its pre-war price? All the oil revenue goes to iraq. What control over the international oil market has the US taken from the war? None; absolutely none. the war was about 9/11. That's it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Chiroptera, posted 07-08-2005 2:38 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Chiroptera, posted 07-08-2005 6:29 PM CanadianSteve has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6473 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 52 of 313 (222641)
07-08-2005 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Meeb
07-08-2005 2:48 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
They (france, germany and Russia) were all undermining sanctions because of their secret oil for food deals, and secret multi-billion dollar business deals set to go into effect after they destroyed UN sanctions against Hussein. That is why they opposed the US war on iraq. That is, a US victory would remove those deals. As it turns out, it was even worse than that: their deals were discovered by iraqis going through hussein's government's papers, and revealed to the world.
In the early 70's france, and then germany, made a pact with the Arab world, the point of which being mutual empowerment. Both would gain geopolitical power vis a vis the US, especially the french and germans, who also got first in line for huge multi-billion dollar business deals with arab dictators. The Arabs got, in exchange, mass immigration to Europe (they knew that that would promote islam in the west, rather than democracy at home), Europe to side with them against israel, and European UN voted keeping the US in check.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Meeb, posted 07-08-2005 2:48 PM Meeb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Meeb, posted 07-08-2005 3:55 PM CanadianSteve has replied
 Message 54 by GDR, posted 07-08-2005 4:05 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Meeb
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 313 (222643)
07-08-2005 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by CanadianSteve
07-08-2005 3:38 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
In the early 70's france, and then germany, made a pact with the Arab world, the point of which being mutual empowerment. Both would gain geopolitical power vis a vis the US, especially the french and germans, who also got first in line for huge multi-billion dollar business deals with arab dictators. The Arabs got, in exchange, mass immigration to Europe (they knew that that would promote islam in the west, rather than democracy at home), Europe to side with them against israel, and European UN voted keeping the US in check.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH HAAA... I'm sorry, but that's the most paranoid and funniest thing I've ever read. Huhhuu...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-08-2005 3:38 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-08-2005 4:14 PM Meeb has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 54 of 313 (222645)
07-08-2005 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by CanadianSteve
07-08-2005 3:38 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
I don't know it was the thing to do to go into Iraq. History will only record the result, but even then we will never know the outcome of a different coarse of action, or inaction for that matter.
In my view however, it is imperative that we realize this is a war. A group of evangelical extremist Islamists have taken a position from a selective literal reading of the Qur'an and built it into a military and political movement. Their enemy is everyone else and particularly the West. They fight this war by targeting unsuspecting innocents and have no regard for life including their own.
Just possibly if the US had acknowledged this fact after the US embassy bombings in Africa, 9/11 could have been prevented and the enemy would be a lot weaker than they are now.
We are up against an enemy that has no borders and in fact in some cases lives among us. It is a very difficult war to fight and all we can do is hope that our leaders make the right decisions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-08-2005 3:38 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
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mick
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 55 of 313 (222646)
07-08-2005 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by CanadianSteve
07-08-2005 3:07 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
CanadianSteve writes:
Bush has radically changed US foreign policy. He has said many times, and Rice reiterated this In Egypt no less 2 weeks ago, that the age of the US supporting tyrannies for stability are passed. Rather, democracy is what the US demands.
Oh please, that really is too much. When you talk about Bush's new committment to human rights and democracy, do you mean Bush's documented support for President Nazarbayev of Khazakstan, a man with a miserable human rights record who has shut down opposition political parties and has therefore shut down democracy? Or his government's involvement in a short-lived coup against a democratically elected president in Venezuela? Or his full support for a coup against the democratically elected president of Haiti? Or do you mean his support for the Uzbekistan government, where according to the British ambassador, ripping out of fingernails and boiling alive of prisoners is commonplace and systematic?
Give me a break.
This message has been edited by mick, 07-08-2005 04:13 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-08-2005 3:07 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 56 of 313 (222647)
07-08-2005 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by GDR
07-08-2005 4:05 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
Kant's,
The Philosophy Faculty versus the Faculty of Law;
Classification of the Concept of That Which We Wish to Foreknow As Regards the Future.
a.
Concerning the Terroristic Manner of Representing Human History
quote:
Decline into wickedness cannot be incessant in the human race, for at a certain stage of disintegration it would destroy itself. Hence in connection with the increase of great atrocities it is said: now things cannot grow worse; Doomsday is at our doorstep; and the pious enthusiast by this time is already dreaming of the restoration of all things and a renovated world after the time that this one will have perished in flames
translated by Mary J. Gregor from the University of Nebraska Press Lincoln and London 1979

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by GDR, posted 07-08-2005 4:05 PM GDR has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6473 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 57 of 313 (222648)
07-08-2005 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Meeb
07-08-2005 3:55 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
If you consider france's behaviour, it makes sense. Here's an article on this by the historian Bat Ye'or:
October 9, 2002, 9:15 a.m.
Eurabia
The road to Munich...
By Bat Yeor
eptember 11, 2001 was for millions worldwide a day of sorrow, pain, and profound sadness; a day of solemn solidarity, self-sacrifice, and prayer. For others it was a day of rejoicing, a revengeful exultation, a long-awaited triumphalism born from the death and suffering of thousands of innocent victims. They were saying: That'll teach them! America deserves it and must repent! And many were asking maliciously: Don't you have remorse for your wrongs? Why don't you ask yourself why you are hated? If we hate you, it can only be your own fault. Emerging from the ruin and distress which they had endured, Americans asked themselves: What have we done? We have been vilely attacked, yet we are accused. Why do they hate us?
And that's the snare. For iniquity engulfs those who hate, who kill ” and not the hated victim. It is those who hate who are sick: sick from envy; sick from the frustration of having failed to achieve an absolute, pathological domination; sick from a schizophrenic lust for power. To heal these societies one must first diagnose the evil and not mask it under the excuse of "poverty" and "underdevelopment." Terrorism is not a consequence of poverty. Many societies are poor, yet they do not produce an organized criminality of terror. To subsidize societies which nourish ideologies of hate will not suppress terrorism, rather such pusillanimity will reinforce it.
America should not choose European ways: the road back to Munich via appeasement, collaboration, and dhimmitude. For decades at the instigation of France, Europe backed Arafat ” the godfather of modern terrorism ” as the champion of liberty, and their hero.
After the Yom Kippur War and the Arab oil blackmail in 1973, the then-European Community (EC) created a structure of Cooperation and Dialogue with the Arab League. The Euro-Arab Dialogue (EAD) began as a French initiative composed of representatives from the EC and Arab League countries. From the outset the EAD was considered as a vast transaction: The EC agreed to support the Arab anti-Israeli policy in exchange for wide commercial agreements. The EAD had a supplementary function: the shifting of Europe into the Arab-Islamic sphere of influence, thus breaking the traditional trans-Atlantic solidarity. The EAD operated at the highest political level, with foreign ministers on both sides, and the presidents of the EC ” later the European Union (EU) ” with the secretary general of the Arab League. The central body of the Dialogue, the General Commission, was responsible for planning its objectives in the political, cultural, social, economic, and technological domains; it met in private, without summary records, a common practice for European meetings.
Over the years, Euro-Arab collaboration developed at all levels: political, economic, religious and in the transfer of technologies, education, universities, radio, television, press, publishers, and writers unions. This structure became the channel for Arab immigration into Europe, of anti-Americanism, and of Judeophobia, which ” linked with a general hatred of the West and its denigration ” constituted a pseudo-culture imported from Arab countries. The interpenetration of European and Arab policies determined Europe's relentless anti-Israel policy and its anti-Americanism. This politico-economic edifice, with minute details, is rooted in a multiform European symbiosis with the Arab world.
German Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher expressed the aims clearly in his opening speech to the Hamburg Symposium's Euro-Arab Dialogue of April 11-13, 1983 (at a time when West Germany held the presidency of the European Community) :
The Euro-Arab Dialogue would indeed remain incomplete if the political side were to be ignored or not taken seriously. Both parties to the Dialogue, both partners, should always remind themselves of the joint Memorandum issued in Cairo in 1975, the Charter of the Dialogue. The Memorandum contains the following quote: "The Euro-Arab Dialogue is the outcome of the common political will which strives for the creation of a special relationship between the two groups." We Europeans spoke out in a clear and convinced manner for a revival of the Euro-Arab Dialogue in the Vienna Declaration of June 13, 1980. Since then, the various working groups within the Dialogue have become more active and the prospects for the future are more promising.
Our Arab partners in the Dialogue have also indicated that they are in favour of continuing and intensifying this Dialogue. Both in the course of this joint venture, our Symposium, and through its outcome, it will become clear that we are determined to give the Euro-Arab Dialogue a new and long-lease of life.
Europe's economic greed was instrumentalized by Arab League policy in a long-term political strategy targeting Israel, Europe, and America. Arab economical ascendancy over the EC influenced the latter's policy toward Israel. The EAD was the vehicle for legitimizing the propaganda of the PLO, procuring it international diplomatic recognition, and conferring on Arafat's terrorist movement honor and international stature by supporting Arafat's address to the General Assembly of the United Nations on November 13, 1974 . Through the labyrinth of the EAD system, a policy of Israel's delegitimization was planned at both the EC's national and international levels. Approved instructions from the highest political, religious, and academic authorities functioned within the EAD's multiple commissions, implicating the media, universities, and diverse cultural activities. The EAD was the mouthpiece which diffused and popularized throughout Europe the defamation of Israel. France, Belgium, and Luxembourg were then the most active agents of the EAD.
Strategically, the Euro-Arab Cooperation was a political instrument for anti-Americanism in Europe, whose aim was to separate and weaken the two continents by an incitement to hostility and the permanent denigration of American policy in the Middle East . The cultural infrastructure of the EAD allowed the traditional cultural baggage of Arab societies, with its anti-Christian and anti-Jewish prejudices and its hostility against Israel and the West, to be imported into Europe. The discredit heaped on the infidel Judeo-Christian culture was expressed by the claim of the superiority of the Islamic civilization, at which source European scholars, over the centuries ” it was said ” had humbly slaked their thirst for knowledge. Drowned in this wave of Arab cultural and religious expansionism that was integrated into the cultural activities of the EAD, Europeans adopted the Arab-Islamic conception of history. The obsequiousness of certain academics, subjected to a political power dominated by economic materialism, is reminiscent of the worst periods of the decline of civilizations. The suppression of intellectual freedom imported from undemocratic Muslim countries, attached to a culture of hate against Israel, has recently led to the exclusion and boycott of Israeli academics by some of their European colleagues.
The cogs created by the EAD led the EC (later the European Union) to tolerate Palestinian terrorism on its own territory, to justify it, and finally to finance Palestinian infrastructure ” later to become the Palestinian Authority ” and hate-mongering educational system. The ministers and intellectuals who have created Eurabia deny the current wave of criminal attacks against European Jews, which they, themselves, have inspired. They deny the antisemitism, as they have neglected the attacks against the fundamental rights of their own citizens by delinquency and the terrorist threats, which they have allowed to develop with impunity in their countries, in exchange for financial profits. The silence and the negligence of the public authorities faced with this wave of antisemitic aggressions is but the tip of the emerged iceberg of a global policy. The EAD, which had tied Arab strategic policies for the destruction of Israel to the European economy was the Trojan horse for Europe's inclusion into the orbit of Arab-Muslim influence.
With the support of parliaments and ministries, the EAD concealed behind the Arab-Israel conflict the global jihad being perpetrated on all continents. Europe's subservience to Arab policy led the EU to give an artificial and absolute priority to the Arab-Israel conflict in international affairs. It could have been solved from the start by the integration of about 500,000 Arab-Palestinian refugees into the Arab League countries, foremost into the Emirate of Transjordan ” created by Great Britain in 1922 from 78 percent of the total League of Nation mandated area of Palestine, the historical Holy Land on both sides of the Jordan river. After the 1947-49 Arab League war against Israel, this territory was increased to 83 percent of Palestine with the occupation of what became the "West Bank" of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.
Europe's pathological obsession with the Arab-Palestinian conflict, has obscured the criminal ongoing persecution of Christians and other minorities in Muslim lands worldwide, and the sufferings and slavery of millions from jihad wars in Africa and Asia.
The sudden collapse of the World Trade Center's twin towers, the recent threat of an American boycott of what was perceived as an antisemitic Europe, President Bush's ironic criticism of Europe's moral haughtiness, and especially the rise of extreme right parties, brought responsible politicians to their senses. They had been blinded by a Palestinian fantasy ("Jenin-grad"); by racist, genocidal accusations; massive media disinformation arousing hatred on their radios and televisions against small, vulnerable Jewish communities, tracked, aggressed, criminalized, and terrorized ” while the leaders of their countries looked the other way and pretended that Israel was responsible for the violent aggressions against Jews in Europe by Arab-Muslim immigrants. Then they saw criminal bands terrorizing their city suburbs, as well as the terrorist networks and rampant fanaticism, which they had overlooked for decades. Today, the likely war against Iraq has caused shivers throughout Europe, which is trembling at the possible collapse of its Arab alliances, built on foundations that implied a rupture with America and the demise of Israel. Europe had tied its Arab-Muslim friendly alliances and prosperity to a cooperation with Middle East tyrants, and by supporting Yasser Arafat's criminal policies.
Hence, the desperate move to save Arafat recently, backed by a widespread and slanderous antisemitic media campaign, together with criminal acts in Europe against Jews, that were neither checked nor condemned. Over 50 years ago the Shoah was the response to Zionism. Today, diaspora Jews and Israel would do well to foresee a possible vengeful reckoning after Saddam Hussein falls and Arafat is marginalized ” an Arafat, who was courted by the EU, which greatly increased its funding to the Palestinian Authority after the Oslo Accords of 1993, without adequate controls. The recent anti-Jewish hysteria in Europe was an advertisement to neutralize diaspora Jews, and the Israeli self-defense mechanism against Palestinian terror, which is why it was so superbly overlooked by the highest authorities. This complacent attitude has scandalized many European friends of Israel, who are much more numerous than the EAD censorship organs and the Euro-Arab terrorist networks would have us believe. Yet the majority of Europeans, who are not antisemitic, are totally unaware of most of the EAD's policy, since its key deliberations are unrecorded. More research and publications are needed in this field.
The cracks between Europe and America reveal the divergences between the choice of liberty and the road back to Munich on which the European Union continues to caper to new Arab-Islamic tunes, now called "occupation," "peace and justice," and "immigrants' rights" ” themes which were composed for Israel's burial. And for Europe's demise.
” Bat Yeor, born in Egypt. A British citizen living in Switzerland since 1960, she is the author of The Dhimmi: Jews and Christians under Islam, The Decline of Eastern Christianity under Islam: From Jihad to Dhimmitude, and Islam and Dhimmitude: Where Civilizations Collide.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Meeb, posted 07-08-2005 3:55 PM Meeb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Meeb, posted 07-08-2005 4:46 PM CanadianSteve has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6473 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 58 of 313 (222651)
07-08-2005 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by GDR
07-08-2005 4:05 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
You're so right about the fact that there were precursor attacks on US targets, from the Iran hostage crisis of 1978 as the first strike, to the barracks in lebanon, to the USS Cole, to the US embassies in Africa, all largely ignored, with both Republican and Democrat presidents responsible. The weakness of US response emboldened the islamists and, probably, made them more attractive within their islamic world.
BTW, nice to see another Canadian here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by GDR, posted 07-08-2005 4:05 PM GDR has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 59 of 313 (222652)
07-08-2005 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Dead Parrot
07-07-2005 10:16 AM


Dealing with terrorists
If this sort of thing keeps up, I fear that we may have to findn the generalk city and location where the terrorists reside and wipe the entire place out. It is savage, and i know that we call ourselves civilized, but war is hell. Paul Harvey was right. We nuked Nagasaki and Hiroshima in order to spare lives. We may soon have to do something similar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Dead Parrot, posted 07-07-2005 10:16 AM Dead Parrot has replied

Replies to this message:
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CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6473 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 60 of 313 (222653)
07-08-2005 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by mick
07-08-2005 4:12 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
I don't really want to go on with this, so, briefly only, your interpretation of those people and those events is radically different than my own.
Bush is the most idealistic liberal democratic president in a long time, perhaps since JFK. For sure we will disgagree on this: I believe history will record him as one of the greatest of all presidents, because he reminded the world what liberal democracy is and from where it came, and, unlike those who ignored the rising Nazi threat in the 30's (ignoring and laughing at Churchill's pleas), Bush saw and reacted to a comparable threat, islamism, before it got too powerful.

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