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Author Topic:   Terrorism in London
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 166 of 313 (222887)
07-09-2005 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Chiroptera
07-09-2005 9:35 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
YOu don't remember any of these verses?
http://www.angelfire.com/moon/yoelnatan/koranwarpassages.htm

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Chiroptera, posted 07-09-2005 9:35 PM Chiroptera has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 167 of 313 (222888)
07-09-2005 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Chiroptera
07-09-2005 9:35 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
I don't know how one can forget the incredible violence therein. Here are some examples, of which there are many more.
Islamic Tolerance
Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. (Koran 9:5)
I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. (Koran 8:12)
The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. (Koran 98:1-8)
A Muslim may not be killed if he kills a non-Muslim (Al Bukhari Vol 9:50)
Fight against those who believe not in Allah, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth [Islam], until they are subdued. (Surat At-Taubah 9:29)
Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.
Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57)
(It will be said) Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. And then insert him in a chain whereof the length is seventy cubits. Lo! he used not to believe in God the tremendous, and urged not on the feeding of the wretched. Therefore hath he no lover hear this day nor any food save filth which none but sinners eat. (Koran 69:30-37)
Idolatry is more grievous than bloodshed... fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme" (Sura 2:91-93).
O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk." [al-Ma'idah 5:51.11]
(As for) those who disbelieve, surely neither their wealth nor their children shall avail them in the least against Allah; and these are the inmates of the fire; therein they shall abide. 3.116
Fight against those who believe not in Allah, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth [Islam], until they are subdued.
Surat At-Taubah 9:29
[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. (Koran 2: 98)
Allah plots against unbelievers. (The Morning Star: 15)
Allah has cursed them (the Jews) on account of their unbelief; so little it is that they believe. (Koran 2:88)
There is disgraceful punishment for the unbelievers. (Koran 2:90)
Mohammed said, “The last hour will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Muslims kill them.” (Mishkat Al Masabih Sh.M. Ashraf pp.147, 721, 810-11, 1130)
[4.76] Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Shaitan (Satan). Fight therefore against the friends of the Shaitan; surely the strategy of the Shaitan is weak.
[4:101] ...surely the unbelievers are your open enemy.
[4:102] ...surely Allah has prepared a disgraceful chastisement for the unbelievers.
[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
[48:29] Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves
[4.92] Anyone who kills a believer intentionally will have his reward in hell, to remain there. God will be angry with him and curse him, and prepare awful torment for him. (Only applies to believers)
[9.73] O Prophet! strive hard [make war] against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.
Abu Bakr, the first Caliph, is reported as saying in the Hadith: "I have been ordered to fight the people until they profess that there is no god but God and that Mohammad is the messenger of God"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Chiroptera, posted 07-09-2005 9:35 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 168 of 313 (222889)
07-09-2005 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Meeb
07-09-2005 9:06 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
2) Do you know that there is more to the bible than Jesus?
Luke 22:36
Luke 14:26
John 15:6
1 Samuel 15:3
The first three are quotes BY Jesus, and we also believe that Jesus IS the God of the Old Testament.
quote:
Luke 22:36 Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be *accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end."
38 So they said, "Lord, look, here are two swords."
And He said to them, "It is enough."
Oh that bloodthirsty Jesus, suggesting that after He is gone they may have need to defend themselves, and yet TWO swords are enough among them.
quote:
Luke 14:25 Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them, 26 "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. 27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it-- 29
In context it is clear that they must be willing to accept that their own relatives will reject them when they turn to Jesus, even to killing them, as this is all about what they must be prepared to give up for His sake, preferring nothing in this world more than Him, including their own lives.
quote:
John 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you* will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. 9 "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
Definitely a warning here, that a Christian MUST bear fruit or be cast off -- because he is not abiding in Christ.
And the command to kill the Amalekites was also a warning -- they had transgressed by their opposition to God and that is how God will ultimately deal with all transgressors. But only in the Old Testament does He deal with them by using His own people as the instrument.
This message has been edited by Faith, 07-09-2005 10:18 PM
This message has been edited by Faith, 07-09-2005 10:22 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Meeb, posted 07-09-2005 9:06 PM Meeb has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-09-2005 10:29 PM Faith has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 169 of 313 (222896)
07-09-2005 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Faith
07-09-2005 10:17 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
It is true that the Jews were ordered by G-d to kill an entire people. However, that was a one time event, in one specific place, with no future implication. In contrast, Allah in the Koran demands that infidels be slayed forever until all the world is subdued by islam and controlled by it. It is an open ended command.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 07-09-2005 10:17 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 07-09-2005 10:32 PM CanadianSteve has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 170 of 313 (222898)
07-09-2005 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by CanadianSteve
07-09-2005 10:29 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
Quite true. There is certainly no threat of suicide bombings from Jews or Christians, or any standing order to "slay them wherever you find them."
This message has been edited by Faith, 07-09-2005 10:32 PM

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Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by crashfrog, posted 07-09-2005 11:16 PM Faith has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 171 of 313 (222899)
07-09-2005 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Chiroptera
07-09-2005 9:35 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
What strikes me about the Koran is that its tone and its message take us backward in time, to an age when faith was about power alone. It is about 'submission' to G-d, more or less like submission to idols or primitive notions of deity, rather than the much more sophisticated relationship with G-d, moral obligations and personal responsibility for choices of judaism and Christianity. And, of course, there's the calls to kill and kill and kill, subjugate, conquer, enslave...all, again, so primitive.
Mind you, not all the koran is like that, not at all. But the more benevolent and wise passages pre-date the others. According the doctrine, where there is a conflcit between passages, the later ones supercede4 and replace the earlier ones. As mohammed gained power and armies, the koran changes from an attempt at peace, wisdom and tolerance to one of glorified religious imperialism. It is not for nothing that islam spread by teh sword immediately after its birth. It began in what is now Saudi Arabia. before long, the Muslims had conquered and displaced the jews and Christians in israel and elsewhere. A few centuries later islam had conquered most of spain, and, a few centuries later, made it to the gates of Vienna...by the sword.
There is a reason why democracy didn't come to Islamic lands first. There is a reason why the islamists state that democracy is evil: rule of man by man, instead of by Allah 9according to sharia law.
But democracy and human nature are simply too aligned for the islamic world not to take it. It will, and peace will then be the reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Chiroptera, posted 07-09-2005 9:35 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Ooook!, posted 07-10-2005 5:27 AM CanadianSteve has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 172 of 313 (222900)
07-09-2005 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Faith
07-09-2005 10:32 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
There is certainly no threat of suicide bombings from Jews or Christians
Are you kidding? You're kidding, right? Surely you haven't forgotten that, prior to 9/11, the worst terrorist act on domestic US soil was perpetrated by two members of a militant Christian milita?
Do Christians do the suicide bombing thing? No, with suicide being a sin I guess they wouldn't. But there's never been any shortage of Christian terror activity.
This message has been edited by crashfrog, 07-09-2005 11:16 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 07-09-2005 10:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Faith, posted 07-09-2005 11:23 PM crashfrog has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 173 of 313 (222901)
07-09-2005 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by crashfrog
07-09-2005 11:16 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
What I said was, there is no standing order to "slay them where you find them." There is nothing in the Bible that commands Christians to do such things. Your claims do not change that fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by crashfrog, posted 07-09-2005 11:16 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by crashfrog, posted 07-09-2005 11:30 PM Faith has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 174 of 313 (222902)
07-09-2005 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by CanadianSteve
07-09-2005 8:36 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
I appreciate your desire to continue, but I seriously doubt that either of us will convince the other of anything.
Well, that all depends on what degree you're going to be ameinable to reason, now doesn't it?
Note that when the US first attacked the nazis it was not germany itself, but North Africa
Yeah. The German forces in North Africa. What's your point?
Bin Laden had not invaded Iraq, and it was not his forces that we engaged. It still isn't. Over 90% of the insurgency continues to be comprised of native Iraqis.
As i wrote to begin this entire thread, Hussein was not an islamist, but there were many reasons to for the 2nd stage of the war on Islamism to be there.
No. Don't insult my intelligence. There were no reasons other than that Bush wanted to do it since he had been elected. Hadn't been in office six months and he was drawing up the battle plans.
There are no reasons for the 2nd stage of the war on terror to be there, and plenty of reasons against - not the least of which was that we hadn't finished the first stage.
And as i also said, trmendous good has come of it
Yeah I hear Iraq has their own orchestra now. Hey, that's worth at least a few thousand lives, right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-09-2005 8:36 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 175 of 313 (222903)
07-09-2005 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Faith
07-09-2005 11:23 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
What I said was, there is no standing order to "slay them where you find them."
Wrong again. Crack open yer Bible:
quote:
Exodus 22:18-20
"You shall not permit a sorceress to live. "Whoever lies with a beast shall be put to death. "Whoever sacrifices to any god, save to the LORD only, shall be utterly destroyed.
Hey, there's three people you're ordered to kill on sight, right there in Exodus. And, as you and your ilk so often point out, the only part of the Old Testament that Jesus absolved you of the duty of following were the dietary restrictions and circumcision. (Or else why would it be wrong to be gay?)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Faith, posted 07-09-2005 11:23 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Faith, posted 07-10-2005 2:16 AM crashfrog has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 176 of 313 (222906)
07-10-2005 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by crashfrog
07-09-2005 11:24 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
You're impolite and belligerent. There is no reason to continue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by crashfrog, posted 07-09-2005 11:24 PM crashfrog has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 177 of 313 (222907)
07-10-2005 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by crashfrog
07-09-2005 11:30 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
What I said was, there is no standing order to "slay them where you find them," and I'll say it again. There is no STANDING ORDER to slay anyone as there is in the Koran. You quote the laws given to ancient Israel, which was a theocracy, laws NOT addressed to the reader or even to the average Israelite of the time, but given to the elders of the Israelites of the time to enact according to the rule of law. Early Puritan America did have laws based on the Old Testament, many calling for capital punishment, did regard themselves as something like a theocracy, and they required due process as laws do. They were not addressed to the people to be carried out willy nilly "wherever you find them," but to be enacted according to the rule of law in a court. The Koran addresses the reader.
This message has been edited by Faith, 07-10-2005 02:51 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by crashfrog, posted 07-09-2005 11:30 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by crashfrog, posted 07-10-2005 9:18 AM Faith has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 178 of 313 (222920)
07-10-2005 4:52 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by CanadianSteve
07-09-2005 8:31 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
If you read the bible, there is simply no call to murder infidels.
Maybe not in the New Testament, but the OT there are many examples where God demands the murder of innocent people, the family of Achan for example.
But the Koran is clear on that point. If you read the Koran, especially the war verses, you will be as shocked as was I...and i mean that in contrast to the bibles.
I am shocked by both books, but if you stand back and view them from the context of the time they were written then you realise that nothing in the books would have shocked contemporary audiences.
Consider this, if jesus, like Mohammed, married many wives including a 9 year old he impregnated when she was 10,
I think Aisha was 9 when Muhammad first had sex with her:
The majority of Muslims agree that Aisha was only 9 years old when the Prophet married her. The following site makes no apology for her young age and accuses the modernists for humbugging the Westerns morality and denying the truth.
From here.
I agree that man having sex with a child is disgusting, but again we have to look at the time and culture under discussion. Did anyone at the time see this as unusual or perverse? I dont think that they did. Remember that many royals in europe married extremelt young people with the primary aim being to establish support from the child's family.
Jesus not having any wives may have more to do with His sexuality rather than a deliberate choice not to marry.
As for Jesus marrying a little girl, here is a strange verse that may explain:
Mark 14:51-52:
51 A young man, wearing nothing but a linen garment, was following Jesus. When they seized him, he fled naked, leaving his garment behind.
There is also The Secret Gospel of Mark to consider, the following fits into chapter 10 of the gMark in our Bibles.
And they went to Bethany and there was a woman whose brother had died. And coming up to him, she prostrated herself before Jesus and said to him, "Son of David, have mercy on me." But the disciples rebuked her.
And becoming angry, Jesus went with her to the garden where the tomb was. And immediately a great sound was heard from the tomb, and Jesus, going toward it, rolled away the stone from the entrance to the tomb. And going in immediately where the young man was, he stretched out a hand and raised him up, holding his hand. Then, the man looked at him and loved him and he began to call him to his side, that he might be with him. And going from the tomb, they went to the house of the young man, for he was rich. And after six days, Jesus instructed him. And when it was late, the young man went to him. He had put a linen around his naked body, and he remained with him through that night. For Jesus taught him the mystery of the kingdom of God. After he got up from there, he turned to the region of the Jordan.
Perhaps there was a very good reason why Jesus never married.
led armies into battle and killed many himself,
Perhaps because Jesus didn't have much of a following, he certainly appeared to be a nondescript character as not a single historian deemed him worthy of a mention.
But, Jesus was a pretty nasty child, look at the evidence in the Infancy Gospel of Thomas:
Chapter 3: 1-4
(1) The son of Annas the scribe was standing there with Jesus. Taking a branch from a willow tree, he dispersed the waters which Jesus had gathered. (2) When Jesus saw what had happened, he became angry and said to him, "You godless, brainless moron, what did the ponds and waters do to you? Watch this now: you are going to dry up like a tree and you will never produce leaves or roots or fruit."
(3) And immediately, this child withered up completely. Then, Jesus departed and returned to Joseph's house. (4) The parents of the one who had been withered up, however, wailed for their young child as they took his remains away. Then, they went to Joseph and accused him, "You are responsible for the child who did this."
And:
Chapter 4:1-4:
(1) Next, he was going through the village again and a running child bumped his shoulder. Becoming bitter, Jesus said to him, "You will not complete your journey." (2) Immediately, he fell down and died.
(3) Then, some of the people who had seen what had happened said, "Where has this child come from so that his every word is a completed deed?"
(4) And going to Joseph, the parents of the one who had died found fault with him. They said, "Because you have such a child, you are not allowed to live with us in the village, or at least teach him to bless and not curse. For our children are dead!"
Jesus kills a child because that child accidently bumped into him, that is extremely nasty in my opinion.
We also have to consider the Christian belief that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament and when we see how barbaric Yahweh is then Jesus was no pussycat.
kept slaves himself
Perhpas he couldnt afford a slave?
and so on, imagine how different Christianity would be.
What makes you think it would be any different? People can use the Bible any way they want, you can make it say almost anything. If people want to murder by using the Bible as justification then I don't think they would have a problem.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-09-2005 8:31 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by arachnophilia, posted 07-10-2005 5:15 AM Brian has not replied
 Message 184 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-10-2005 11:40 AM Brian has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 179 of 313 (222921)
07-10-2005 5:15 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Brian
07-10-2005 4:52 AM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
Jesus not having any wives may have more to do with His sexuality rather than a deliberate choice not to marry.
actually, i think it would have more to do with the philosophy of the early church. there are sects that believe jesus was maried to mary of magdala. and they've been around a lot longer than dan brown's book.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Brian, posted 07-10-2005 4:52 AM Brian has not replied

Ooook!
Member (Idle past 5814 days)
Posts: 340
From: London, UK
Joined: 09-29-2003


Message 180 of 313 (222922)
07-10-2005 5:27 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by CanadianSteve
07-09-2005 10:53 PM


Someone famous once said...
quote:
And why beholdest thou the mote that is thy brothers eye, but considerest not the beam that is your own eye
As I'm sure others have already pointed out, Christianity has not been all sweetness and light in regards to the whole killing and plundering thing.
So when you say:
CS writes:
. A few centuries later islam had conquered most of spain, and, a few centuries later, made it to the gates of Vienna...by the sword.
in such a condeming tone as part of your evidence that "Islam is Bad" I hope you think that others can present the horrific crimes committed during the crusades as evidence that "Christianity is Bad". Ever read anything about the sacking of Constantinopol? Or how about the intial land grab by the 'holy' Constantine himself?
There is a reason why democracy didn't come to Islamic lands first. There is a reason why the islamists state that democracy is evil: rule of man by man, instead of by Allah 9according to sharia law.
But there are people in the good old US of A who want to pervert democracy and impose standards dictated to them BY A BOOK. Guess that makes Christianity an evil anti-democratic faith doesn't it?
The invasion of Iraq is one of the factors that have made the middle east a hotbed for fundamentalist Islam, "Islam is Bad!" is not one of them. Please go and read about true Islam and go and talk to real muslims. There's some pretty good stuff in the Koran, just as there is in Christianity, it's just that there is some pretty questionable stuff knocking about as well (just as in the Bible). The vast majority of Muslims pay no attention to the type of things you've been going on about - don't tar them with the same brush as fundamentalist nutters.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-09-2005 10:53 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
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