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Author Topic:   Terrorism in London
mick
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 256 of 313 (223243)
07-11-2005 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by crashfrog
07-11-2005 7:52 PM


crashfrog,
I know it's weird. It probably varies depending on where you live in the UK. London is far more cosmopolitan (in terms of the general public's understanding of race) than the northern cities, despite the fact that many of the northern cities have very diverse and concentrated ethnic groups.
Where I come from (in the kind of North-Midlands) both Kung Pow Chicken and Tikka Masala would be called "Asian Food". The level of discrimination might go down to "Chinese" or "Indian" but that's about it.
I approve of your use of pictures to make a point. To get what I would call the UK point of view, at least in the part of the country where I live - if you look anything like the bloke below, you are likely to get hassled by cops and by drunken people. Even without the orange jumpsuit. This is the archetype of what people in Nottinghamshire would consider a "muslim person" and an "asian".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by crashfrog, posted 07-11-2005 7:52 PM crashfrog has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 257 of 313 (223246)
07-11-2005 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by crashfrog
07-11-2005 7:19 PM


Re: War in the Qur'an
Who is true to their faith matters because it greatly determines how soluable is the problem. Christians who bear you grievous harm are not true to their faith and, therefore, will have to commit seriously illegal and punishable offenses to do so. Nor do they have, therefore, much support, overall, in the Christian community. They are isolated and seen by the majority of believing Christians as not only wrong (if they commits acts of terror or single you out for assassination), but to be violating their faith. Such sanctions and perspective keeps the small movement of truly fanatical Christians (those who might fly planes into buildings or bomb subway trains) in check.
In contrast, Muslims who bear you, me, all other western liberal democrats and truly peaceful, tolerant, democratically-minded Muslims grievous harm are, very rationally and arguably, true to their faith. That makes it not only harder to convince them not to feel, see and act as they do, but it provides them a huge support system of like-believing Muslims. Worse, while many non violent Muslism disapprove of their methods, their aims have their sympathy and, therefore,a kind of ambivalent support. Thus, fanatical Christians are under control and in the tiny minority, while fanatical muslims are not under control and, while a small minority, they have support from a sizeable minority worldwide, even right here at home. That makes the problem difficult to solve.
To sum: If Christians are not true to their faith when they carry out terrorist war, they are easier to control. And so they are. But if Muslims are true to their faith when they so act, they are far harder to control. And so it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by crashfrog, posted 07-11-2005 7:19 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by crashfrog, posted 07-11-2005 8:25 PM CanadianSteve has replied
 Message 260 by Dead Parrot, posted 07-11-2005 8:40 PM CanadianSteve has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 258 of 313 (223253)
07-11-2005 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by CanadianSteve
07-11-2005 8:09 PM


Re: War in the Qur'an
Who is true to their faith matters because it greatly determines how soluable is the problem.
No, it doesn't. Fundamentalism is fundamentalism. The Christian terrorists are no more ameinable to reason than the Muslim ones.
Nor do they have, therefore, much support, overall, in the Christian community.
Really? I've never heard a Christian church decry the outrageous abuses of Fred Phelps or speak out in support of the victims of an abortion clinic bombing. Rather, all I've heard is insulting sophistry along the lines of "well, wouldn't you have shot Hitler to save the Jews if you had had the chance?"
I've never heard a Christian church take a stance against creationist shysters like Kent Hovind and Carl Baugh. In fact my old church has all of Hovind's videos in their library. They give them to kids. I've never heard a Christian church distance themselves from Ayatollah Dobson and his American Family Association/Focus on the Family jihadists. Never.
Little support from the Christian community? Please. The biggest failing of modern Christianity is their steadfast refusal to clean house when it comes to their own fundamentalists. Hell if you want I'll dig up examples of Christian churches actually harboring these Christian psychos and murderers.
Such sanctions and perspective keeps the small movement of truly fanatical Christians (those who might fly planes into buildings or bomb subway trains) in check.
In check? Did you forget that, prior to 9/11, the largest single act of US domestic terrorism was committed by a Christian? In what sense are these people being held in check when their own religious community offers no sanctions whatsoever?
Like I said, this is just a pissing contest. You never miss an opportunity to chime in and remind us how much better and nicer Christian terrorists are. The racism is not so subtle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-11-2005 8:09 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by jar, posted 07-11-2005 9:24 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 262 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-11-2005 9:29 PM crashfrog has not replied

Ooook!
Member (Idle past 5814 days)
Posts: 340
From: London, UK
Joined: 09-29-2003


Message 259 of 313 (223255)
07-11-2005 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by mick
07-11-2005 7:16 PM


No apologies to Admins for this comment, I know it won't contribute to the discussion but I feel it has to be said by someone
The headline is: Maybe now it's time to start listening to the BNP.
Bastards!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by mick, posted 07-11-2005 7:16 PM mick has not replied

Dead Parrot
Member (Idle past 3345 days)
Posts: 151
From: Wellington, NZ
Joined: 04-13-2005


Message 260 of 313 (223258)
07-11-2005 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by CanadianSteve
07-11-2005 8:09 PM


Re: War in the Qur'an
Such sanctions and perspective keeps the small movement of truly fanatical Christians (those who might fly planes into buildings or bomb subway trains) in check.
Here's an idea: Make yourself a big sign saying "F--k the Pope" and go for a walk down Shankhill Road in Belfast. Then make another sign saying "F--k Martin Luther", and go for a walk down the Falls Road. Then come back and tell us about how the fanatical Christians are kept in check, and the community doesn't support grievous harm.
Hint: Get life insurance first.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-11-2005 8:09 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-11-2005 9:32 PM Dead Parrot has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 261 of 313 (223264)
07-11-2005 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by crashfrog
07-11-2005 8:25 PM


Christian church take a stance against creationist
While you may not have run into such a church, they certainly do exist. If you'll check each of the confrontations regarding teaching Creationism you'll find that Christian Church groups have been vocal opponents and among the most vocal supporters for teaching the Theory of Evolution.
Really? I've never heard a Christian church decry the outrageous abuses of Fred Phelps or speak out in support of the victims of an abortion clinic bombing.
Again, just because you have not heard of such a church, you should have run into Christians here at EvC that have decried such behavior. In addition, not long ago I posted a link to just such a Christian organization. You can find it at Message 1.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by crashfrog, posted 07-11-2005 8:25 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by crashfrog, posted 07-12-2005 7:28 AM jar has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 262 of 313 (223266)
07-11-2005 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by crashfrog
07-11-2005 8:25 PM


Re: War in the Qur'an
Again, we'll have to agree to disagree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by crashfrog, posted 07-11-2005 8:25 PM crashfrog has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 263 of 313 (223269)
07-11-2005 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Dead Parrot
07-11-2005 8:40 PM


Re: War in the Qur'an
We have publicly funded art exhibits of a cross in urine. But if we throw pages of the koran into a toilet there are riots in islamic countries. we have Muslims preaching to prisoners in our prisons, but Chruches burned to the ground in Muslims nations, along with those inside. To even begin to suggest that religious tolerance here is similar to that in islamic nations is just plain nuts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Dead Parrot, posted 07-11-2005 8:40 PM Dead Parrot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Dead Parrot, posted 07-11-2005 10:24 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Dead Parrot
Member (Idle past 3345 days)
Posts: 151
From: Wellington, NZ
Joined: 04-13-2005


Message 264 of 313 (223280)
07-11-2005 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by CanadianSteve
07-11-2005 9:32 PM


Re: War in the Qur'an
Yes, I'd agree that there is less tolerance is many Islamic countries. However, the point I was trying to make is that there is nothing special about Christianity or Islam when it comes to religeous fanatics prepared to kill for a perverted veiw of their faith. Your sweeping statements suggesting that 20% of mankind are pre-disposed to violence because of thier faith are so simplistic as to be laughable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-11-2005 9:32 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-11-2005 11:22 PM Dead Parrot has replied

Monk
Member (Idle past 3923 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 265 of 313 (223286)
07-11-2005 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by CanadianSteve
07-08-2005 4:49 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
All very true. Glad to find others here whose view is the same as mine.
Cheers!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-08-2005 4:49 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-11-2005 11:23 PM Monk has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 266 of 313 (223287)
07-11-2005 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by Dead Parrot
07-11-2005 10:24 PM


Re: War in the Qur'an
Laughable, except that islamists are killing in the name of their faith all over the globe, and almost everywhere that an islamic nation borders on a non islamic nation there is active or smouldering war, and almost everywhere that there is a sizeable islamic minority, there is either violence within, or serious social conflicts that typically do not exist with other minorities. And such is the long history of islam. Why? Because of the faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Dead Parrot, posted 07-11-2005 10:24 PM Dead Parrot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Dead Parrot, posted 07-12-2005 12:18 AM CanadianSteve has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 267 of 313 (223288)
07-11-2005 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Monk
07-11-2005 11:01 PM


Re: It is about Iraq, and much more
Do you log onto Front Page Magazine? If not, you will appreciate it: frontpagemagazine.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Monk, posted 07-11-2005 11:01 PM Monk has not replied

Dead Parrot
Member (Idle past 3345 days)
Posts: 151
From: Wellington, NZ
Joined: 04-13-2005


Message 268 of 313 (223289)
07-12-2005 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by CanadianSteve
07-11-2005 11:22 PM


Re: War in the Qur'an
Hmmm. I was going to produce a detailed reply based on globalsecurity.org's list of current conflicts and a map, but if you're getting your information from the hopelessly xenophobic frontpagemagazine.com, I won't bother. You can go and look for yourself if you are interested - here - but I'm sure you'd rather wait for Ann Coulter to boil it down into small words for you. I'm not going to waste any more time on this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-11-2005 11:22 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-12-2005 12:30 AM Dead Parrot has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6472 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 269 of 313 (223290)
07-12-2005 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by Dead Parrot
07-12-2005 12:18 AM


Re: War in the Qur'an
have you not read huntington's The Clash of Civilizations? My information comes from many sources, including, as may surprise you, several islamic writers. As for front page magazine...its rhetoric is sometimes over the top, although no more than many popualr leftist sites, like moveon.org. But its themese are, generally, reasonable. Interestingly, while it was treated dismissively originally, its influence has grown to where it is now treated angrily. Take the Academic bill of Rights: laughed at, then roused anger, then key associations who opposed it grudgingly accepted its principles, along with senate legislatures.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Dead Parrot, posted 07-12-2005 12:18 AM Dead Parrot has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 270 of 313 (223312)
07-12-2005 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by crashfrog
07-11-2005 7:27 PM


Race
We call everyone from Turkey to India 'Asian' (though of late a tendency to differentiate has arisen so "Middle Eastern" and "Indian". People from China/Japan/Vietnam/Korea etc are referred to as Oriental.
Americans get really upset about calling people Oriental, however it doesn't have the same connotations here. Those who don't call them Oriental, might opt for the less diplomatic "Chinese".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by crashfrog, posted 07-11-2005 7:27 PM crashfrog has not replied

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