Far left - US/UK definition

Steve,I think if I went down the list and stated my perception of Left/Right with all of them I might be here a while. For starters, many of them seem to be either Strawmen errected by people with views such as yourself to riddicule what you see as 'Bleeding Heart' liberals: or complex questions requiring complicated answers: As an alternative exercise why don't you , by using my definition of left and right, briefly set out what you think my opinion on the top three is (multiculturalism, moral relativity, moral equivilence) and explain where you think the main points of debate are.To start you off here is my opinion (again I think I'd qualify as left-of-centre) on Multiculturalism: What do you think I view as a 'right-wing' view, and how does this fit with my position that Right=Indidual Left=Society as a whole? But I thought that was the whole point of the thread. Why do some people view things as relatively central, whereas others condemn them as 'Leftist'?

We have ALL made generalizations and put forward our subjective impressions on this thread. That's expected. Where else can we start? And we are also likely to do that when the topic wanders, or we've lost interest because of the wandering, as I pretty much have.That's not the problem. The problem is that not one of the apparent leftists on this thread has yet even TRIED to define criteria for their subjective views or anybody else's, while Canadian Steve and I both have attempted that to some extent, he more systematically than I -- to no avail, however, as all the opposition does is nitpick about various items, take clever potshots, and argue about the criteria instead of trying to stand back and SEE WHAT THE CRITERIA ARE. I don't know if nobody's INTERESTED in the topic or just can't think objectively about it. That's not the problem unless it's ALL anybody does. We all do that. If one uses the label at all, then theoretically it should be possible upon some reflection to make a stab at why you used it to describe whatever you did. If we just STARTED doing this then all the subcategories and subtleties might eventually find their place in the scheme. That's what I think this thread should be about, but maybe bobbins, its originator doesn't, as there he is over on the POTM thread seconding mick's nomination for his ridiculously irrelevant and erroneous post on the subject.We all do label people but I've said a number of times here that for the sake of this discussion we should be making an effort to label ideas instead, as people may hold any combination of ideas. While a label may fit a person in a broad sense (I'm quite happy with "rightwing" or "conservative") it won't work to cover the exceptions and oddities that are bound to come up in an individual's frame of reference.I simply think if anyone calls a view rightwing or leftwing it ought to be possible to specify why we call it that and compare others' criteria with our own. (If in Canada such distinctions simply aren't made, as somebody here bragged, and are completely meaningless, then that person has no business making a comment on this thread at all.)This may be too demanding of us intellectually, however, as we are all used to simply KNOWING that a view is this or that and not specifying why. I simply thought we could take a stab at it. But I don't see anybody either caring or having a clue, so maybe I should just give up. I don't know why I care anyway. Maybe just an obsession with categorizing.This message has been edited by Faith, 07-25-2005 06:56 AM

I can see by your post to Steve that you just don't get it, Oook. He gave a brief list of items he associates with the left. You just criticize them instead of understanding that they represent how he thinks about the left and you need to figure out what they mean as you probably don't even know from such a brief list.The point is to refine the criteria for starters. All you are doing is muddying it up. For instance you say nothing about the item "multiculturalism" except that you think it's a good thing. So, superficially I guess that puts you somewhere in the leftist direction but it doesn't do a thing to clarify what makes multiculturalism leftist. What do you MEAN by the term. And do you have a clue what Steve means by it? Do you mean the same thing by it?Switching things around isn't going to help a bit if that's the best you can do with Steve's list.This message has been edited by Faith, 07-25-2005 06:50 AM

Sorry Oook I didn't see this post of yours until now and now I don't have the time to deal with it. Unfortunately this thread may be over before I do. But maybe another one will open. Or if it isn't over I'll get to it later today.

In that case I'll save my comments on why I am not missing the point until then

Although you argue that the Grauniad employs a lot of comment writers who subscribe to quite lefty views (and I'm not disputing that), it isn't unusual to see a comment column in there from someone of a radically different view. That's pretty cool.

Sheesh! Here finally comes a Brit disagreeing with the Brit bobbins about the lefty character of the Naidraug. That being the case, why not post it in answer to bobbins' opening post?

quote:

---

Everything you are calling a neutral fact is a leftwing position and if I can get back to it later to make the case I will.

---

So, is it actually NOT a fact that Israel has a sophisticated military?Is it actually NOT a fact that the Palestinians do not, and all they have are sticks, stones, and suicide bombers?Is it actually NOT a fact that Israel punishes the Palestinian people as a group for the actions of a few?

quote:

---

And no, I don't call everybody left wing I disagree with, I disagree with everything I know is left wing.

---

...and what, to you, is "left wing?"Please be specific.

I already said those are facts, Schraf. If you're going to take up space at the end of a thread like this it would be good if you'd address the main topic, or barring that, at least get the side topic right. That is false, as I made clear. They are as exact in their targeting of terrorists as is possible under the circumstances. What do you think this entire thread is about? Try reading it first.

quote:

---

Monopolies are a problem, and are inherently averse to capitalism.

---

...yet they thrived in the US for quite some time, along with a complete lack of protection of any kind (physical, financial, etc) for the worker.Many, many ordinary workers risked everything in the strikes and lockouts, and quite a few lost their lives at the hands of the industrialists' henchmen fighting for reasonable treatment by their employers.Reagan ushered in a return to the old ways when he broke the back of the air traffic controller's union.

quote:

---

Thus, every capitalist nation has particular laws and regulation to keep that in check. Thus, I agree with you that some order of checks are needed. And thus, even in nations where conservatives are more powerful, like the US, those checks remain.

---

But we see them being eroded when conservatives are in power.We are seeing companies being allowed to default on pensions, we see deregulation of many industries which has only led to higher prices and other fun things like massive power blackouts, we see new laws being passed that deny people overtime pay even when they are required to work overtime, etc.It's the workers, after all, that ultimately create wealth.

quote:

---

ironically, it is the left in the US, at least, that protects the trial lawyers who have made government so fearful.

---

Trial lawyers serve an important purpose in protecting the individual citizen against well-heeled corporations.With the advent of the independent entity known as "the corporation", businesses long ago stopped "doing the right thing" by people they harm and instead deny any and all wrongdoing through high powered, highly-paid legal tapdancing.Nowadays, hitting corporations in the finances is the only thing they care about and pay attention to.A perfect case in point is the country's largest corporation, Wal-Mart. Check out how they treat their workers: MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest VideosWal-Mart has also been investigated several times for labor and immigration violations.The Walton kids own 2% of the US's GDP! How vigorously do you think a conservative government is going to go after such wealth?

Woah there! As has become abundantly clear to all of us, we all have very different ideas of lefty. I think that's what's making this topic so hard to actually talk about. We have different frames of reference, so its proving to be very difficult to actually address the topic.I'd say more but I've got to look as though I'm working right now... please excuse me.

quote:

---

Doctors and hospitals are first rate - once you get by the waiting lines to see them. And, as of recent, our hospitals are falling behind in the newest equipment.

---

The "newest equipment" is useless if you can't get an appointment.Here in the US, insurance premiums are very expensive, especially if you have children, and the co-pays are an additional cost, and then there is the two to three month wait for an appointment.You may have to wait, but at least you aren't paying hundreds of dollars a month to not be able to get in to see the doctor.

quote:

---

Of course there was, and is today, a vibrant poltiical culture, and it was, and is today, largely repreented in the two principle US parties (Although there have been other important parties in times past, but not now.)

---

I disagree that there is a vibrant political culture in the US today.Most people correctly observe that there is very little difference between the two parties, although these days, with the authoritarian neo-cons in power and the Democrats finally figuring out that being "Republican-lite" was only getting them slapped around, we are seeing a slight shift towards more actual difference in opinion.But is there great diversity of political views that get any attention or credence at all in the US?Not in the least.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 07-25-2005 10:03 AM

Sorry, absolutely NOTHING has become "abundantly clear" on this thread, including that "we all have very different ideas of lefty." If all the criteria were clearly undestood it might turn out we DON'T have such different ideas. We'll probably never know, the way this thread is going.The problem is that either nobody wants to try to be objective or knows how, preferring to lob zingers from the sidelines. In any case, you are the only one to call the Guardian lefty, I think, though somebody said it's a bit to the left of center or something like that, also without bothering to say what leads him to that conclusion. Anyway, I was serious. Your post should have been addressed to bobbins' original topic since that is what the thread is about, and in doing so, perhaps you could give a few clues to what about the Guardian makes it lefty in your view. Is that REALLY too much to ask?