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Author Topic:   Design and the intelligence hypothesis
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 6 of 109 (226186)
07-25-2005 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
07-24-2005 9:47 PM


"I Am"
God supposedly used those words to describe who She was.
Those of us who are theists, particularly the Christian ones, believe that GOD exists and that GOD created the universe. The question "but who designed the designer" has no real meaning since by definition GOD is that which was not created; He Is.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by sidelined, posted 07-24-2005 9:47 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 8 by sidelined, posted 07-25-2005 12:39 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 9 of 109 (226232)
07-25-2005 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by sidelined
07-25-2005 12:39 PM


Re: "I Am"
We cannot simply state god always existed since we again are trapped by the notion of temporal cause and effect.
Of course we can. By definition GOD is without cause. GOD is that which was not created and which created.
Am I assuming wrongly that that you are equating god with being as an integrated part of the world or not?
Yes, IMHO you are mistaking what I said. What we see as the Universe may well be part of GOD, but the Universe does not contain GOD. GOD may contain the Universe and the Universe may be part of GOD, but the limits are on us, not on GOD.
What origin could god have?
GOD had no origin. To speak of "Before GOD" has no more meaning that talking about before the Singularity.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by sidelined, posted 07-25-2005 12:39 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by sidelined, posted 07-26-2005 2:17 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 12 of 109 (226252)
07-25-2005 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by NosyNed
07-25-2005 1:43 PM


Re: Infinite Regression
I think there needs to be one other distinction made between the classical Creationist/ID proponent and the Theistic Evolutionist.
Remember that the basic argument between the two sides if that creationism in any form does not belong in the science classroom. The reason that IDers shy away is that god is not an acceptable answer without evidence for this god.
The Theistic Evolutionist would agree with both of those statements.
Once they admit that the designer is faith based then they admit that they have no other backing than personal faith.
Again, the Theistic Evolutionist would agree that it is a position of Faith and so does not belong in Science Classrooms.
But the Theistic Evolutionist is also a Creationist. We believe that GOD created the Universe and point to the majesty of the rules that seem to apply, the universality of those rules and the inevitable consequences of those rules as evidence of that which we call GOD.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by NosyNed, posted 07-25-2005 1:43 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by NosyNed, posted 07-25-2005 2:29 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 14 of 109 (226304)
07-25-2005 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by NosyNed
07-25-2005 2:29 PM


Re: Creationist and creationist
Works for me. I don't think I can tell GOD how to do much of anything.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 18 of 109 (226562)
07-26-2005 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by sidelined
07-26-2005 2:17 PM


Re: "I Am"
To say that god had no origin is the same as saying god had no beginning.To have had no beginning implies to have never existed in the first place.
That is certainly one interpretation but another is the concept of eternal existence, that GOD is that which always existed and will always exist. Long after this universe has run down, GOD will exist.
We experience time, beginnings, endings because you and I exist within the constraints of this universe. That's all we can know, we're limited. GOD is that which does not have limits.
What does it mean to say that a god is beyond time and space without,in the same breath,disabling the ability to meaningfully interact with time and space?
Without and within. The Universe may well exist within GOD.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by sidelined, posted 07-26-2005 2:17 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by sidelined, posted 07-27-2005 1:10 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 25 of 109 (226810)
07-27-2005 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by sidelined
07-27-2005 1:10 PM


Re: "I Am"
But everything you said applies to this universe.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by sidelined, posted 07-27-2005 1:10 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by sidelined, posted 07-27-2005 2:35 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 27 of 109 (226822)
07-27-2005 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by sidelined
07-27-2005 2:35 PM


Re: "I Am"
Must be. GOD is that which created the Universe. Since He is the creator, She must have existed before time. Or at the least, She exists in a superset of our spacetime frame.
Now when GOD does interact within this Universe, spacetime does comeinto play, and that can be seen in the miracles, they happened in a timeframe that is appropriate for humans to see, sense and experience.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by sidelined, posted 07-27-2005 2:35 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by sidelined, posted 07-29-2005 1:45 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 29 of 109 (227308)
07-29-2005 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by sidelined
07-29-2005 1:45 AM


Re: "I Am"
The reason that I often use multiple genders when refering to GOD is that I doubt that GOD, if He exists, is in the image of life as we know it. I have no proof for that but it does seem to me to be reasonable.
Before going on, I would once again like to stress that the existence of GOD IS a matter of faith. I can no more prove what I say than I can prove that something existed before the BB.
To have the universe be a subset requires some way of determining that this god forms a greater domain yet other than taking it on a faith wherein you fashion an imagined scenario to account for the qualities you require of god in order to explain the universe we need establish some means by which we can avoid suffering the same contradictory fate as ID does.
Well, we can't prove it, at least not yet, so it does become a matter of taking it on faith. It's back to the view from Flatland.
I am also curious about your use of the term time frame.Are you able to express what it means to have a time frame and how and why would god make a time frame different?
It was perhaps a poor choice of words, but what I'm trying to convey is the following.
We exist in one space/time universe. Although our view of it is relative to our position related to everything else, it is still one space/time unit.
Now what is the physical effect that comes into play when god communicates in space time? In other words,what is there different that is not there when god is not communicationg? Why or why not can we demonstrate the change that I presume would occur as a result?
When GOD opperates within the Universe things are pretty much as we see them. I think it really does come down to the question of how a Flatlander would percieve us? GOD, if he exists can use all of the normal features of our universe. But GOD, if he exists, can also suspend or modify any of those rules. There may also be other rules, those involved in the superset, of which we are totally unaware.
But it is a matter of faith. I have never tried to convince you otherwise. I believe that the definition of GOD is that which created the Universe. He might well be more. She might well have created other Universes as well.
But we are limited to this one, at least so far. And as such, we can only sense and operate within the constraints of this universe.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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 Message 28 by sidelined, posted 07-29-2005 1:45 AM sidelined has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 48 of 109 (228404)
08-01-2005 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by randman
08-01-2005 3:22 AM


Do rules equal design?
I am sorry, but if it takes "simple rules", then that's design by definition.
I'm sorry but that is simply not true.
If I flip a coin it will land showing either heads or tails.
Where is the design in that?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by randman, posted 08-01-2005 3:22 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by randman, posted 08-01-2005 12:49 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 50 of 109 (228483)
08-01-2005 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by randman
08-01-2005 12:49 PM


Re: Do rules equal design?
I'm sorry but that is simply nonsense.
This message has been edited by jar, 08-01-2005 01:21 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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 Message 49 by randman, posted 08-01-2005 12:49 PM randman has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 55 of 109 (228775)
08-02-2005 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by randman
08-02-2005 1:06 AM


What design?
The universe does exhibit design. That's a fact.
Sorry but you have not yet provided any evidence to support that assertion.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by randman, posted 08-02-2005 1:06 AM randman has not replied

  
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