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Author Topic:   Does Islam need a Reformation?
CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6494 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 31 of 300 (227005)
07-28-2005 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Andya Primanda
07-28-2005 8:33 AM


I appreciate your hnest effort at a fair-minded dialogue.
Although it's certainly true that Mohammed only got so far, for his time that "so far" was a fairly significant amount of empire building. Bear in mind too, that he didn't really get going on that until mid life (about 40?), when he had built armies. At that point, he went from being a lone voice to a virtual imperialist king, acquiring land through relentless war. That, BTW, expalins why the later verses of the Koran are so different than the earlier ones. That explains the War Verses (although the verses are not presented in chronological order).
Assuredly, the "lust for conquest" is not exclusively Arab. Most peoples have conquered. But I disagree about the source. Few, if any other, faiths call for imperialism. Islam, very arguably does.
al Qaeda's principle sponsors are the wahabbis. It is a Wahabbi organization, as is the Egyptian Brotherhood. Not only is it global, but the iranian Islamists also sponsor terrorist organizations, like, and maybe principly, Hezbullah.
Islam is a faith of over one billion. Even though it is true, as I have also said, that a minority of Muslims are Islamists (although a larger minority of Arab Muslims), that minority is still in the many millions. That is how the Islamist movement is global, to the point where even British born and raised Muslims, some from moderate families, are exposed to Islamist teachings in local mosques - the results of which we've seen in recent weeks.
I read Jazzn's reply. His argument is the one side of the theological civil war in Islam, and one I've read many times. The other side is the Islamists' take on the War Verses - one that says there is a killing rule. While jazzn's comments may or may not offer evidence against killing the "other peoples of the book," (i.e., Jews and Christians, and that is contentious if they reject Islam, and at a minimum they're still expected to live in subjugated status), it does not deny the duty to "kill the unbeliebers wherever you find them," (i.e., non Jews and Christians) if they reject Islam. I posted some links to Islamist thinking. (the Islamists also rule out democracy as an evil.)
The Islamists are angry that the US stands between them and their march to takeover the Islamic world - with the intent of then going after the rest of the world. Bear in mind that they kill far, far more Muslims, for now, (aside from in Sudan) than non Muslims. They had taken over Afghanistan and ran it precisely according to sharia law (as they interpret it). Women were made virtual slaves. Music was not allowed. There and in Iraq the majority of insurgents are foreigners. They are killing Iraqis in a wave of suicide bombings in the hope of derailing democracy. Meanwhile, the majority of Iraqis (and Afghanis) want the Americans to stay until they are strong enough themselves to defeat the Islamists (and in Iraq, Hussein loyalists who are, for now, working together). The people support America, whom they see is on their side. That is the often not understood dynamic. Moreover, the US was very careful to limit casualties. The number is in the thousands, of whom a great many were Islamists or Saddamites.
Because Islamism is a global movement, there is no simple solution, such as catching a nominal number of them. As pointed out, they're even in the west. The Wahabbis have even taken control of the vast majority of western mosques and islamic organizations. They have cells in many places. There is good reason to believe that even CAIR is an Islamist front group. It's founder, and several other key people, have been sent to jail for terrorist related activities.
Many will agree with you that the Koran cannot be changed, not one word. My hope - and maybe it is unrealistic - is that it could be edited unde the guise of being updated to modern vernacular. In other words, it would not be said to be altered, merely put in modern language to be more mroer easily understood.
I think if you go back and re-read any of my past posts, you will see that they are nothing other than dispassionate efforts at reason. I was in no way hostile, or even impolite. the real issue is the assumption in this moral realtivist and moral equivalence age that to even suggest that there is a flaw in the faith of another civilization is defacto bigotry. That many Muslims themselves, being victims of the Islamists more than ourselves for now, are wondering the same is not understood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Andya Primanda, posted 07-28-2005 8:33 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 300 (227006)
07-28-2005 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Faith
07-28-2005 9:33 AM


Renowned scholar's fault
Renowned scholar said
quote:
The last chapter of the Koran commands the remorseless extermination of all idolaters in Arabia, unless they submit within four months.
The last chapter of the Quran is
Chapter114
The Man
In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
Say: "I seek refuge with the Lord of mankind,"
"The King of mankind,"
"The god of mankind,"
"From the evil of the sneaking whisperer,"
"Who whispers into the chests of mankind,"
"From among the Jinn and mankind."
Qur'an
http://yaqb.lrhazi.com/index.php?query=c%3D114
Renowned scholar's credibility goes up in flames.
This message has been edited by Andya Primanda, 07-28-2005 09:41 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 9:33 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 9:47 AM Andya Primanda has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 33 of 300 (227008)
07-28-2005 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Faith
07-28-2005 9:12 AM


Re: Islam's beginnings
quote:
Christianity became the religion of Europe almost exclusively through the work of missionaries.
Faith, who were the Marranos?
hint, look at this site to learn who they were

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 9:12 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 9:51 AM nator has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 34 of 300 (227009)
07-28-2005 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Andya Primanda
07-28-2005 9:41 AM


Re: Renowned scholar's fault
Sure looks bad for renowned scholar except that you are quoting from a modern edition of the Koran, and he was writing in the 1880s. The man does not deserve your offhanded dismissal. There is some other explanation but I don't suppose it would be easy to produce a 19th century Koran.
Well, I'm no scholar and I know when the deck's against me. So have a good day.
This message has been edited by Faith, 07-28-2005 09:48 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Andya Primanda, posted 07-28-2005 9:41 AM Andya Primanda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by CK, posted 07-28-2005 9:53 AM Faith has replied
 Message 44 by Andya Primanda, posted 07-28-2005 10:01 AM Faith has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6494 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 35 of 300 (227011)
07-28-2005 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Jazzns
07-28-2005 9:09 AM


Re: Context of "War" Verses.
did you not read my various links? They offer the other side that you wish to see.
Did you know that the origins of Jews wearing a yellow star were not Nazi, but Islamic? That is part of the subjugated status Jews and Christians are meant to live under until they convert.
Of course, through various times Islamic societies did not impose subjugation of Jews adn Christians or others. It simply depended on whether Islamists (of whatever itineration) were in charge. As I say, there has been a civil war within Islam, whether theological or also martial) through most of its history. On the other hand, Islam did spread by teh sword, meaning that Islamism has been powerful, as it is now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Jazzns, posted 07-28-2005 9:09 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 56 by Jazzns, posted 07-28-2005 10:23 AM CanadianSteve has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6494 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 36 of 300 (227012)
07-28-2005 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Jazzns
07-28-2005 9:19 AM


Re: Context of "War" Verses.
I cited a new, very scholarly book, "The history of Islam." It has the definitions you seek.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Jazzns, posted 07-28-2005 9:19 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 37 of 300 (227013)
07-28-2005 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by nator
07-28-2005 9:46 AM


Re: Islam's beginnings
Another example of forced conversion against the spirit of Christianity, done as a matter of fact while Islam was still a big influence in Spain. What I have said is absolutely true. Europe was Christianized by missionaries. This occurred up to just before the first Crusade. And I gave the evidence. Please see link.
This message has been edited by Faith, 07-28-2005 09:51 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by nator, posted 07-28-2005 9:46 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6494 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 38 of 300 (227014)
07-28-2005 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by CanadianSteve
07-28-2005 9:48 AM


Re: Context of "War" Verses.
Also, i've cited in past various Islamist understanding of jihad as martial.
Again, while i tend to see that that is the truth, I nonetheless fully appreciate that the majority of Muslims are peaceful. Nonetheless, the faith is now and always has been, amenable to either interpretation. And that is the problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-28-2005 9:48 AM CanadianSteve has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 10:01 AM CanadianSteve has replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4149 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 39 of 300 (227015)
07-28-2005 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
07-28-2005 9:47 AM


Re: Renowned scholar's fault
quote:
Sure looks bad for renowned scholar except that you are quoting from a modern edition of the Koran, and he was writing in the 1880s. The man does not deserve your offhanded dismissal. There is some other explanation but I don't suppose it would be easy to produce a 19th century Koran.
Well, I'm no scholar and I know when the deck's against me. So have a good day.
So the Koran has been rewritten between now and then?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 9:47 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 10:02 AM CK has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 40 of 300 (227016)
07-28-2005 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
07-28-2005 9:51 AM


Re: Islam's beginnings
quote:
Another example of forced conversion against the spirit of Christianity, done as a matter of fact while Islam was still a big influence in Spain.
...so, even though Islam was still a big influence in Spain (and Portugal), it was the Christians who were persecuting and murdering the Jews who didn't convert?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 9:51 AM Faith has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 41 of 300 (227017)
07-28-2005 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Faith
07-28-2005 9:38 AM


More nonsense assertions.
Your opinion is irrelevant.
The only opinion I expressed was that Schaff is but another Christian bigot.
You are arguing from opinion and assertion and proving nothing.
So you assert. How rulers ruled is most certainly on topic. It was by asserting Christian Rights. And your scholar is but another Christian bigot.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 9:38 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 5:04 PM jar has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6494 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 42 of 300 (227018)
07-28-2005 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by nator
07-28-2005 9:31 AM


For sure there has been and continues to be significant differences between various branches of Christianity. But there is nothing in the NT that could be objectively read as equivalent to the War Verses.
As I've pointed out too, if Jesus, like mohammed, has led countless battles, had many wives, married a child with whom he had a baby when she was 9 years old, and owned slaves (some made into concubines), then Christianity would be a very different faith and theological differneces would be moe pronounced and have greater implications.,.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by nator, posted 07-28-2005 9:31 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 51 by nator, posted 07-28-2005 10:12 AM CanadianSteve has replied
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 10:15 AM CanadianSteve has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 43 of 300 (227020)
07-28-2005 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by CanadianSteve
07-28-2005 9:51 AM


Denial just gives the jihadists carte blanche
You are correct, Steve.
The majority of Muslims follow the peaceable Koran, and no doubt sincerely deny that official Islam contains the impetus for terrorism.
I would have no reason whatever to say a word against Islam if it weren't that the jihadists base their campaigns directly and apparently legitimately on the Koran according to many Muslims themselves, and on the other works of Islam such as the accounts of Mohammed's life.
I would rather just leave it all alone. But unfortunately there is too much evidence that the terrorism is based in the sacred doctrines themselves, which means there is no way to deal with them, by other Muslims or by anybody else. The denial one encounters from most Muslims just makes the situation all the scarier, as it means there is no effort then to be made by the people on the inside to curb the actions of the jihadists.
The jihadist teachings have an inexorable quality to them by being based in what is considered to be the word of God, and even if many others do not follow that view, most are not working to correct it, but working only to deny it, and there may be others also who actually sympathize with it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-28-2005 9:51 AM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-28-2005 10:05 AM Faith has not replied

Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 300 (227021)
07-28-2005 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
07-28-2005 9:47 AM


Re: Renowned scholar's fault
The Qur'an in the 1880s would have the same last chapter!
Man, that was the lamest getaway argument ever.
To Steve: Sorry I must be off now. I'll get back to you soon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 9:47 AM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 45 of 300 (227022)
07-28-2005 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by CK
07-28-2005 9:53 AM


Re: Renowned scholar's fault
It may have been rearranged so that what is now the last book was not the last book then.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by CK, posted 07-28-2005 9:53 AM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by CK, posted 07-28-2005 10:03 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 48 by Andya Primanda, posted 07-28-2005 10:06 AM Faith has not replied

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