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Author Topic:   Does Islam need a Reformation?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 14 of 300 (226934)
07-28-2005 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Andya Primanda
07-27-2005 7:49 AM


Islam's beginnings
There's plenty of evidence that Islam started its career by force and violence. Here is a brief description of its original conquests as described in a monumental work on Christian history written in the late 19th century. There is an abundance of references cited, in fact you have to scroll through quite a list of them to get to the text:
HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH*
Christianity made its conquest by peaceful missionaries and the power of persuasion, and carried with it the blessings of home, freedom and civilization. Mohammedanism conquered the fairest portions of the earth by the sword and cursed them by polygamy, slavery, despotism and desolation. The moving power of Christian missions was love to God and man; the moving power of Islm was fanaticism and brute force. ...
Islm in its conquering march took forcible possession of the lands of the Bible, and the Greek church, seized the throne of Constantine, overran Spain, crossed the Pyrenees, and for a long time threatened even the church of Rome and the German empire, until it was finally repulsed beneath the walls of Vienna. The Crusades which figure so prominently in the history of mediaeval Christianity, originated in the desire to wrest the holy land from the followers of "the false prophet," and brought the East in contact with the West.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Andya Primanda, posted 07-27-2005 7:49 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

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 Message 17 by jar, posted 07-28-2005 8:37 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 15 of 300 (226963)
07-28-2005 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Andya Primanda
07-27-2005 7:49 AM


Mohammed's violent conquests
Here's more from that same chapter of the History of the Christian Church. (I've been reading through it, and have only read half so far as it's quite long). It gives an objective and sympathetic portrait of Mohammed and his mission it seems to me. However, it does confirm the violent aspects of the religion, as well as the peaceable aspects, based on Mohammed's own retreat from peaceful conversion to making converts by force:
HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH*
After his call, Mohammed labored first for three years among his family and friends, under great discouragements, making about forty converts.... Then he publicly announced his determination to assume by command of God the office of prophet and lawgiver, preached to the pilgrims flocking to Mecca, attacked Meccan idolatry, reasoned with his opponents, answered their demand for miracles by producing the Koran "leaf by leaf," as occasion demanded, and provoked persecution and civil commotion. He was forced in the year 622 to flee for his life with his followers from Mecca to Medina (El-Medina an-Nab, the City of the Prophet), a distance of two hundred and fifty miles North, or ten days’ journey over the sands and rocks of the desert.
This flight or emigration, called Hgira or Hidshra, marks the beginning of his wonderful success, and of the Mohammedan era (July 15, 622). He was recognized in Medina as prophet and lawgiver. At first he proclaimed toleration: "Let there be no compulsion in religion;" but afterwards he revealed the opposite principle that all unbelievers must be summoned to Islm, tribute, or the sword. With an increasing army of his enthusiastic followers, he took the field against his enemies, gained in 624 his first victory over the Koreish with an army of 305 (mostly citizens of Medina) against a force twice as large, conquered several Jewish and Christian tribes, ordered and watched in person the massacre of six hundred Jews in one day,156 while their wives and children were sold into slavery (627), triumphantly entered Mecca (630), demolished the three hundred and sixty idols of the Kaaba, and became master of Arabia. The Koreish were overawed by his success, and now shouted: "There is but one God, and Mohammed is his prophet." The various tribes were melted into a nation, and their old hereditary feuds changed into a common fanatical hatred of the infidels, as the followers of all other religions were called. The last chapter of the Koran commands the remorseless extermination of all idolaters in Arabia, unless they submit within four months.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Andya Primanda, posted 07-27-2005 7:49 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 20 of 300 (226983)
07-28-2005 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
07-28-2005 8:37 AM


Re: Islam's beginnings
Well, it's pretty hard to take a text serious that makes such major mistakes. If the author is a scholar then he is simply a liar.
Philip Schaff's credentials and his long list of references are impeccable and you should be ashamed to say such a thing. If we are required to produce evidence, opponents should be required to recognize the evidence and refute it with equally qualified evidence.
Christianity made its conquest by peaceful missionaries and the power of persuasion, and carried with it the blessings of home, freedom and civilization.
What complete nonsense. Christianity made its conquests by the sword, the rack, the stake, the pillory, deseased blankets, fear and raw power.
The whole work by Schaff does not slight such incidents in Christian history. Read the chapter on the Crusades -- but staggeringly brutal as it was, this had nothing to do with spreading the gospel, as Mohammed's killings did -- they were wars of conquest and retaliation.
What Schaff says is true about how Christianity was SPREAD to others. Read his chapter about how Europe was Christianized. It took centuries of missionary work to the European barbarian tribes and was barely completed just before the Crusades. {EDIT: You are not making a distinction between the wars of Christendom and the evangelism of the gospel for conversion. The Inquisition was hardly about converting anyone, and there was ONE incident of diseased blankets PURPOSELY given to the Indians, and it was NOT done in the name of Christianity.
You are the ignorant one, Jar, and given to making bald assertions without evidence too.
This message has been edited by Faith, 07-28-2005 08:56 AM
This message has been edited by Faith, 07-28-2005 08:58 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 07-28-2005 8:37 AM jar has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 22 of 300 (226989)
07-28-2005 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Andya Primanda
07-28-2005 8:42 AM


Re: Islam's beginnings
You are to dispute a contention with evidence, not namecalling. Calling me irrational is a violation of the Forum Guidelines. I produced the exhaustively researched work of a renowned scholar for my evidence and you and Jar have answered with nothing but insults and assertions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Andya Primanda, posted 07-28-2005 8:42 AM Andya Primanda has replied

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 Message 27 by Andya Primanda, posted 07-28-2005 9:22 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 24 of 300 (226991)
07-28-2005 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
07-28-2005 9:07 AM


Re: Islam's beginnings
Christianity became the religion of Europe almost exclusively through the work of missionaries.
HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH*
{Late edit: Error. Meant to link THIS chapter, though the above is good too, and this one has problems in the beginning, though I've reported the bug to the site so it may change soon:
HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH*
You do not know your history. And the other incidents you name were violations of the teachings of Christ, whereas Mohammed himself set the theme for conversion to Islam by force.
This message has been edited by Faith, 07-29-2005 06:29 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 07-28-2005 9:07 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 07-28-2005 9:21 AM Faith has replied
 Message 33 by nator, posted 07-28-2005 9:46 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 29 of 300 (227001)
07-28-2005 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Andya Primanda
07-28-2005 9:22 AM


Re: Islam's beginnings
The 'renowned scholar' couldn't even get the facts straight! [That 'last chapter' quote did it for me].
Your job is to PROVE it, not assert it, according to the rules of EvC.
Hence I ignore you. I know how you behave at discussions. At least Steve showed a willingness to discuss things in good faith [pun intended].
I don't care if you ignore me, I'll be just as happy to ignore you. But your entire argument so far is nothing but assertion and personal slur and the above is a perfect Ad Hominem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Andya Primanda, posted 07-28-2005 9:22 AM Andya Primanda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Andya Primanda, posted 07-28-2005 9:41 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 30 of 300 (227004)
07-28-2005 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by jar
07-28-2005 9:21 AM


Re: Islam's beginnings
Your opinion is irrelevant. You are arguing from opinion and assertion and proving nothing. How rulers ruled is off topic. The topic is how people were converted to the faith. I gave you a link to the information that Europe was converted by missionaries over a period of many centuries. You keep referring to military actions and other time periods and other contexts altogether, that have nothing to do with the methods of conversion. And above all you do nothing but opinionate, you give no proof even of your off topic points. I gave a scholar's work full of citations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 07-28-2005 9:21 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 07-28-2005 9:56 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 34 of 300 (227009)
07-28-2005 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Andya Primanda
07-28-2005 9:41 AM


Re: Renowned scholar's fault
Sure looks bad for renowned scholar except that you are quoting from a modern edition of the Koran, and he was writing in the 1880s. The man does not deserve your offhanded dismissal. There is some other explanation but I don't suppose it would be easy to produce a 19th century Koran.
Well, I'm no scholar and I know when the deck's against me. So have a good day.
This message has been edited by Faith, 07-28-2005 09:48 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Andya Primanda, posted 07-28-2005 9:41 AM Andya Primanda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by CK, posted 07-28-2005 9:53 AM Faith has replied
 Message 44 by Andya Primanda, posted 07-28-2005 10:01 AM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 37 of 300 (227013)
07-28-2005 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by nator
07-28-2005 9:46 AM


Re: Islam's beginnings
Another example of forced conversion against the spirit of Christianity, done as a matter of fact while Islam was still a big influence in Spain. What I have said is absolutely true. Europe was Christianized by missionaries. This occurred up to just before the first Crusade. And I gave the evidence. Please see link.
This message has been edited by Faith, 07-28-2005 09:51 AM

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 Message 33 by nator, posted 07-28-2005 9:46 AM nator has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 43 of 300 (227020)
07-28-2005 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by CanadianSteve
07-28-2005 9:51 AM


Denial just gives the jihadists carte blanche
You are correct, Steve.
The majority of Muslims follow the peaceable Koran, and no doubt sincerely deny that official Islam contains the impetus for terrorism.
I would have no reason whatever to say a word against Islam if it weren't that the jihadists base their campaigns directly and apparently legitimately on the Koran according to many Muslims themselves, and on the other works of Islam such as the accounts of Mohammed's life.
I would rather just leave it all alone. But unfortunately there is too much evidence that the terrorism is based in the sacred doctrines themselves, which means there is no way to deal with them, by other Muslims or by anybody else. The denial one encounters from most Muslims just makes the situation all the scarier, as it means there is no effort then to be made by the people on the inside to curb the actions of the jihadists.
The jihadist teachings have an inexorable quality to them by being based in what is considered to be the word of God, and even if many others do not follow that view, most are not working to correct it, but working only to deny it, and there may be others also who actually sympathize with it.

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 Message 38 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-28-2005 9:51 AM CanadianSteve has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 45 of 300 (227022)
07-28-2005 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by CK
07-28-2005 9:53 AM


Re: Renowned scholar's fault
It may have been rearranged so that what is now the last book was not the last book then.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by CK, posted 07-28-2005 9:53 AM CK has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 53 of 300 (227034)
07-28-2005 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by CanadianSteve
07-28-2005 9:56 AM


Christianity is a red herring
For sure there has been and continues to be significant differences between various branches of Christianity. But there is nothing in the NT that could be objectively read as equivalent to the War Verses.
That is exactly the point that nobody here has yet recognized. We're talking about the sacred texts of the respective religions, not how people behave, which may be anything given our fallen nature. Christianity may not have been lived in a Christian fashion by many, but also the New Testament does not support their unChristian behavior.
The Koran, however, does support both peaceable conversion and violent conversion, as well as simply slaying the "infidel," so that jihadists are being true to the religion.
As I've pointed out too, if Jesus, like mohammed, has led countless battles, had many wives, married a child with whom he had a baby when she was 9 years old, and owned slaves (some made into concubines), then Christianity would be a very different faith and theological differneces would be moe pronounced and have greater implications.,.
Yes, that's a good point too.
You might be interested in reading the chapter about Islam at the link I provided somewhere back there, Steve. Although I quoted only the parts for the sake of this discussion that demonstrate the violence in the spreading of Islam, it also gives a sympathetic portrait of Mohammed in my opinion. He was a man of his culture. Marrying a very young girl was not a violation in his culture, nor was owning slaves or polygamy. I think we mustn't judge him too harshly.
What is of concern to us about Islam is the fundamental DOCTRINAL elements within it -- not the usual wars and conflicts between people that are unfortunately "normal" to the human race, but OFFICIAL DOCTRINE -- which threaten the peace and stability of the world with which it comes in contact. I understand that the average Muslim gets defensive about this subject, but all that does is bury the problem and make it all the more dangerous.
Continuing to attack Christianity in this context is nothing but a smokescreen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-28-2005 9:56 AM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-28-2005 10:19 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 59 of 300 (227044)
07-28-2005 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by CK
07-28-2005 10:09 AM


Re: Faith to retract statement?
I can retract my guess about what happened as I don't know the explanation, but the fact is that exactly what Schaff was referring to IS in the Koran although it is not NOW in the last chapter, mostly chapter 9:
This site is reinterpreting them nonviolently
Certainly, the Koran furnishes us with verses which have the appearance of extremely provocative utterances aimed at rousing the Mussalmans to a state of murderous mob-fury. Go forth light armed and heavy armed and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah, says the Koran (9/41). A verse of this kind does look like being more in the nature of a rabble-rousing ejaculation than a proclamation of preplanned and premeditated warfare. Slay the idolaters wherever you find them (9/5) is again, to all appearances, a call to lawless violence rather than a general’s directive to draw the battle lines with discipline and forethought.
Indeed, the whole group of the so-called Immunity Verses (9/1-12) of the Koran seems for all practical purposes to indicate a sort of abdication of the Islamic state’s responsibility for law and order by asking the Muslim masses to destroy the infidel population by whatever means available to them. A close examination of the context and consequences of the verses is, therefore, necessary to investigate the question of the relation of the doctrine of jihd to religious riot. As has been mentioned earlier, the Immunity Verses of Srah Taubah were issued in early 631 AD to inform the idolaters of Arabia that after the expiry of 4 months their religion would no longer be tolerated. As Mohammed Pickthall, the orthodox translator of the Koran, mentions in the introduction to this srah, these verses formed the proclamation of Immunity from obligation toward the idolaters and signified the end of idolatry in Arabia. But how was that end to be achieved? By slaying the idolaters indiscriminately, says the Koran; by besieging them and by laying for each of them an ambush. In other words, Allah does appear to have sanctioned, by these verses, religious riots on an unprecedented scale.
Institute for the Secularization of Islamic Society
Muslim theologians are unanimous in declaring that no religious toleration was extended to the idolaters of Arabia at the time of Muhammad. The only choice given them was death or the acceptance of Islam. This total intolerance never seems to be taken into consideration by the apologists of Islam when they lay claims to Islamic tolerance. Unbelievers in general are shown no mercy in the Koran which is full of lurid descriptions of the punishments awaiting them. xxii.9:"As for the unbelievers for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skins shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron- rods. The Koran also enjoins all Muslims to fight and kill non-believers: xlvii.4: "When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives."
This message has been edited by Faith, 07-28-2005 10:39 AM
This message has been edited by Faith, 07-28-2005 10:47 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by CK, posted 07-28-2005 10:09 AM CK has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 60 of 300 (227047)
07-28-2005 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by CanadianSteve
07-28-2005 10:19 AM


Re: Christianity is a red herring
I agree, Jesus gave us an amazing antidote to the evils of this world.
I have to leave for a while. I am actually praying for you in dealing with this subject, Steve, like it or not, to be clear and cogent and unruffled -- you are all three anyway but one can always use help, right? I've never seen a topic here so aggressively and belligerently monitored as this one.
Carry on.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Jazzns, posted 07-28-2005 11:08 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 61 of 300 (227049)
07-28-2005 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Chiroptera
07-28-2005 10:36 AM


Re: Islam's beginnings
Well thank you very much. Very kind of you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Chiroptera, posted 07-28-2005 10:36 AM Chiroptera has not replied

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