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Author Topic:   Does Islam need a Reformation?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 61 of 300 (227049)
07-28-2005 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Chiroptera
07-28-2005 10:36 AM


Re: Islam's beginnings
Well thank you very much. Very kind of you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Chiroptera, posted 07-28-2005 10:36 AM Chiroptera has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3938 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 62 of 300 (227054)
07-28-2005 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Faith
07-28-2005 10:52 AM


Re: Christianity is a red herring
There is a grand total of 4 admin posts out of 60 with 1 of them being the topic promotion post.
That being said, this is a moderated debate board. Admins in the interest of fostering discussion have been historically relaxed in how hard they apply their moderation. Sometimes though it is a crime how much they let some people get away with avoiding the topic, changing the topic, and basic disregard of the forum guidelines.
If you don't want to see a thread that is actually moderated correctly, don't participate. I would have no problem with you keeping your input, which I consider both racist and bigoted, out of this discussion. Although I do hope we can keep it friendly in other topics, I will never forget your behavior in the other Islam thread that we first tangled in.
I loathe to relive that. I am content to forgive the hatred displayed in that thread in the spirit of Christian love. For those of you who were not there or do not remember Islam does not hate christianity. The only thing I can do is to pray for those who have so much hate in their heart to say the things that they do and hope that the truth of their corruption is transparent to those who are watching.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 10:52 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-28-2005 2:56 PM Jazzns has not replied
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 4:12 PM Jazzns has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6499 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 63 of 300 (227114)
07-28-2005 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Jazzns
07-28-2005 10:23 AM


Re: Context of "War" Verses.
I've offered several rebuttals. the first is that in Islamic theology anyone who refuses islam is committing sin. people of the Book may be subjugated rather than killed, but others, as your texts show, are subject to death. I have also indicated, and do again below, where mohammed nonetheless killed jews and Christians.
Moreover, what you present is by no means an absolute or anythkng close ot it. it is an entirely subjective interpretation. Most Madrassahs teach other than what you see - a reference to which i make below. And the Islamists, that huge global maovement, disagree with you, which is why they are killing people in something like 26 countries of many faiths.
Then there's that the koran has many contradictions. That too I address below with respect to "abrogration."
Thus, all needs to be addressed as a whole, not through selective passages and selective subjectivity. We need to consider why the Islamists disagree with you. And that they do for many reasons, beginning with the example mohammed set, and how they deal with the contradictions in the Koran and hadith, versus how peaceful Muslims deal with them.
Finally, before my quotes below, you simply must bear in mind that I am saying that either interpretion can be valid. Therefore I amnot actually disagreeing with you, only pointing out that your view is not necessarily correct, while, ironically, not necessarily being wrong either. Both are justifiable.
Let's consider several contradictions. First, we are told that the people of the book should not be forced to convert or face violence (only subjugation).
"Unfortunately, there are other stories of Muhammad -- particularly his notorious treatment of the Jewish Qurayzah tribe of Arabia. After they were captured, Muhammad executed them. According to his earliest biographer, Ibn Ishaq: "The apostle went out to the market of Medina (which is still its market today) and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for [the men of Banu Qurayza] and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches." One of the Prophet’s fiercest enemies among the Banu Qurayza, Huyayy, proclaimed: "God’s command is right. A book and a decree, and massacre have been written against the Sons of Israel." Then Muhammad struck off his head."
Sucuri WebSite Firewall - Access Denied
"There is more: Akyol (a democratically-minded moderate Turk Muslim and scholar) asserts that "in the Koran Jews and Christians are called 'The People of the Book,' and salvation is promised to them if they worship God sincerely (2:62). True, but the Qur'an also says of both Jews and Christians: "Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!" (9:30)."
Sucuri WebSite Firewall - Access Denied
"Bell, in his authoritative1937 translation and exegesis of the Koran, demonstrates “ . is a chapter of war proclamations . ”, verses Q.9.29 to Q.9-35, for example, being
“ . in effect a proclamation of war against Jews and Christians, and probably belong to the year IX [9-years after the Hijra] when an expedition was designed for the North which would involve war with Christians and possibly also with Jews.” 1"
Inside Every Progressive Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out - David Horowitz
"Moreover in classical exegesis, sura 9, both its individual verses, and as an overall chapter, abrogates the pacific Koranic verses like those Akyol cites in his article section subtitled, Discovering the Good Unbelievers. Ibn Warraq summarizes the Muslim concept of abrogation:
“Contradictions do abound in the Koran, and the early Muslims were perfectly well aware of them; indeed they devised the science of abrogation to deal with them. It is a very convenient doctrine that, as one Christian unkindly put it, ”fell in with that law of expediency which appears to be the salient feature in Muhammad’s prophetic career’. According to this doctrine, certain passages of the Koran are abrogated by verses revealed afterward, with a different or contrary meaning. This was supposedly taught by Muhammad himself, at Sura 2, verse 105: 'Whatever verses we cancel or cause you to forget, we bring a better or its like.' . Now we can see how useful and convenient the doctrine of abrogation is in bailing scholars out of difficulties- though, of course, it does pose problems for apologists of Islam, since all the passages preaching tolerance are found in Meccan (i.e., early suras), and all the passages recommending killing, decapitating and maiming, the so-called Sword Verses are Medinan (i.e., later); ”tolerance’ has been abrogated by ”intolerance’. For , the famous Sword verse, Sura 9, verse 5, 'Slay the idolators wherever you find them,' is claimed to have canceled 124 verses that promote tolerance and patience.” 2"
Inside Every Progressive Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out - David Horowitz
"Within several centuries of Muhammad’s death, Muslim theologians and jurists, Sunni (including all four main schools of jurisprudence), Shi’ite, and Sufi (both Sunni and Shi’ite), constructed from Koranic verses, the hadith collections, and the sacralized biographies (sira) of Muhammad, a remarkably consistent body of law describing jihad war as a permanent institution to Islamize the known world. Ibn Khaldun (d. 1406), jurist (Maliki), renowned philosopher, historian, and sociologist, summarized these consensus opinions from five centuries of prior Muslim jurisprudence with regard to the uniquely Islamic institution of jihad war:
“In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the [Muslim] mission and [the obligation to] convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force... The other religious groups did not have a universal mission, and the holy war was not a religious duty for them, save only for purposes of defense... Islam is under obligation to gain power over other nations.” 4"
Inside Every Progressive Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out - David Horowitz
"[the] concept of jihad is interpreted in the Egyptian school curriculum almost exclusively as a military endeavor . it is war against God's enemies, i.e., the infidels . it is war against the homeland's enemies and a means to strengthening the Muslim states in the world. In both cases, jihad is encouraged, and those who refrain from participating in it are denounced."
same source
"Ibn Hudayl, a 14th century Granadan author of an important treatise on jihad, explained forthrightly, sanctioned procedures and methods which contradict Bernard Lewis’ categorical, but erroneous assertion:
“It is permissible to set fire to the lands of the enemy, his stores of grain, his beasts of burden - if it is not possible for the Muslims to take possession of them - as well as to cut down his trees, to raze his cities, in a word, to do everything that might ruin and discourage him, provided that the imam (i.e. the religious “guide” of the community of believers) deems these measures appropriate, suited to hastening the Islamization of that enemy or to weakening him. Indeed, all this contributes to a military triumph over him or to forcing him to capitulate."
same source

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Jazzns, posted 07-28-2005 10:23 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Jazzns, posted 07-28-2005 2:44 PM CanadianSteve has replied
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3938 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 64 of 300 (227126)
07-28-2005 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by CanadianSteve
07-28-2005 2:16 PM


Re: Context of "War" Verses.
I've offered several rebuttals.
We will allow the board moderators to decide if you have done so.
With regards to your continued mischaracterization of the word 'jihad', please address the point in Message 25 and Message 57 with regards do the quality of your sources about the proper definition of words in a culture.
Also, a requst was issued for you to repost the relevant quote and source for which you refered to in Message 36. Kindly honor this request.
Please address specific points in an honest debate.
Thank you.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-28-2005 2:16 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-28-2005 3:02 PM Jazzns has replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6499 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 65 of 300 (227131)
07-28-2005 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Jazzns
07-28-2005 11:08 AM


Re: Christianity is a red herring
It is true that this topic is given to digression...but not entirely. If it is true that islam's war verses are the real root cause of islamist imperialism within Islamic countries, (like Islamist foreigners pouring into iraq and killing Iraqis to thwart their efforts at creating a democracy), then that is a substantial argument for an islamic reformation. If the war verses are also the explanation for why Islamists are killing people of many faiths - including Muslims - in something like 26 nations, then that is an even stronger argument.
If, however, there is simply no way that their actions can be attributable to the War verses, then that is an impeachable argument against the need of a reformation.
However, if either view can be substantially and rationally argued, then we have a dilemma. Does the faith need a reformation, or does it not? That i see as the major point of this thread. As you know, i argue not for a reformation, beacsuee i don't see that is possible, but for some kind of edit to ensure the faith can only be interpreted by all as you intepret it.
I disagree with you about hate being presented here. frankly, that seems more like a blame the messenger attitude. It simply is true that islamists worldwide are massacring in the thousands. It is not hateful to say that. If, as is the case, the Islamists quote their faith as the basis of their actions - even chanting from the Koran when they cut off heads - then it is not hateful to state that. If there is a legitimate debate as whether they are true or untrue to their faith, then it is not hateful to say that. If, as is the case, the islamists see the world as Islam against all else until islam conquers all, it is not hateful to say that. Nor is it hateful to discuss the huge implications that has for all the world, islamic (Muslims, ironically, are also the victims of Islamism) and non islamic, especially as the islamic world gains nuclear weapons and missiles.
The real haters are the islamists. Hate is preached in their mosques worldwide, even here in our western antions, and practised in their wars. The vile anti-Semitism of all the Arab world, and too much of the Islamic world, is real hate. Even the anti-Americanism in much of the islamic press is hate (ever read MEMRI?).
To speak of their hate, and their rational for their hate, is not be hateful. To speak of the implications is not hateful.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Jazzns, posted 07-28-2005 11:08 AM Jazzns has not replied

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6499 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 66 of 300 (227136)
07-28-2005 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Jazzns
07-28-2005 2:44 PM


Re: Context of "War" Verses.
I am at a loss for what you want. i have given you about 10 sources for Jihad as martial, all of which deal with verses from the koran as well as deal with it in many other ways. i even sourced a new book by an acclaimed scholar on the history fo Jiahd. That book quotes the koran adn the war verses in mulitple places. I have sourced how islamist through history have interpreted the war verses as martial Jihad.
I have also offered, indirectly through references to them, those who argee with you, like the turkish scholar, Akyol.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Jazzns, posted 07-28-2005 2:44 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Jazzns, posted 07-28-2005 4:59 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 67 of 300 (227149)
07-28-2005 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Jazzns
07-28-2005 11:08 AM


Emotions vs. objectivity
I hope people will read that thread Islam does not hate christianity as there was not an iota of hatred expressed on my part. I got some back at me however.
It seems to be almost impossible to discuss this subject here without raising extreme emotions on the Muslim side that interfere with objectivity and fairness. My arguments on that thread were completely objective, addressing questions of fact, whereas you engaged in a great deal of emotional argument, accusation and character assassination and were far from objective. I believe you are blinded by your emotional attachment to the subject and are unable to get an objective distance from it for the purpose of discussion which is required in a debate forum.
I never lost my temper on that thread as I recall, despite the frustrating attitudes expressed against me, though I may be misremembering. I've lost it at times on this site but not on that thread.
You mistake objective arguments in favor of positions that you dislike for hatred. That's too bad. I have no hatred whatever for you or for Muslims or for Palestinians. But your emotional attacks on me ought to be recognized as such on a site that prides itself so conspicuously on its supposed objectivity.
The moderation on this thread is biased and aggressive, unusually so. However, I'm not complaining at all, merely stating a fact.
This message has been edited by Faith, 07-28-2005 04:14 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Jazzns, posted 07-28-2005 11:08 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by CK, posted 07-28-2005 5:04 PM Faith has replied
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3938 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 68 of 300 (227154)
07-28-2005 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by CanadianSteve
07-28-2005 3:02 PM


Re: Context of "War" Verses.
I'll address both of your replies to me in this one post.
It is true that this topic is given to digression...but not entirely. If it is true that islam's war verses are the real root cause of islamist imperialism within Islamic countries, (like Islamist foreigners pouring into iraq and killing Iraqis to thwart their efforts at creating a democracy), then that is a substantial argument for an islamic reformation. If the war verses are also the explanation for why Islamists are killing people of many faiths - including Muslims - in something like 26 nations, then that is an even stronger argument.
There is nothing wrong with the previous statement. I feel though that you are simply asking the abosolute most wrong question you can about the problem. The question should be is the selective quoting from the Koran and the Hadith the primary motivation behind the action of violent fundamental Islamists and what do we do about it?
Selective quote of religious texts happens in all religions when it comes to fundamentalism. Many Christians selectivly quote to justify cult like practices such as newborn baptisms, snake handling, requiring speaking in tounges, etc. Granted that the consequences of the miss used verses in this case are in particular more dire, that does not mean that Islam as a whole needs to change.
If, however, there is simply no way that their actions can be attributable to the War verses, then that is an impeachable argument against the need of a
reformation.
I have not argued that they do not attribute their actions to the war verses. I agree that they probably do. My argument is that they do so outside of mainstream Islam. Your argument seems to be that they do not.
However, if either view can be substantially and rationally argued, then we have a dilemma. Does the faith need a reformation, or does it not? That i see as the major point of this thread. As you know, i argue not for a reformation, beacsuee i don't see that is possible, but for some kind of edit to ensure the faith can only be interpreted by all as you intepret it.
An edit will not happen in the Koran any more than one will happen in the Bible. If it cannot happen then why both suggesting it?
I disagree with you about hate being presented here.
My comment about hate was qualifying the other thread about Islam that was mired it propaganda and decit awhile back. I don't want to do that again with Faith or you for that matter. It is not worth the anxiety to worry about convincing someone that their entire worldview towards a particular culture for which they base negative opinions on has been directed by propaganda rather than fact.
The real haters are the islamists. Hate is preached in their mosques worldwide, even here in our western antions, and practised in their wars. The vile anti-Semitism of all the Arab world, and too much of the Islamic world, is real hate. Even the anti-Americanism in much of the islamic press is hate (ever read MEMRI?).
Anti-semitism is a particular appropriate phrase for your quote because when you really look at that term and then look at how it is used it is quite ironic. It can be said that sentiments of anti-semitism can be attributed to both Arabs and Jews being that many of them do hate each other and they are both Semetic people. The hatred comes from both sides and to ignore that is to make a graver mistake than the one you are worrying about most in this thread. The problem is bigger than just Arabs hating Jews.
I am at a loss for what you want. i have given you about 10 sources for Jihad as martial, all of which deal with verses from the koran as well as deal with it in many other ways. i even sourced a new book by an acclaimed scholar on the history fo Jiahd. That book quotes the koran adn the war verses in mulitple places. I have sourced how islamist through history have interpreted the war verses as martial Jihad.
My problem is exactly with your sources. Please re-read my previous two posts on this issue Message 25 and Message 57. My complaint is that your are choosing the definition of the term given by those who are at best biased and at worst racist toward Arabs. In those two posts I asked you a number of direct questions that were never answered. One tends to get a bit aggrivated when direct questions are ignored.
In particular, I would rather use a definition of a word given to me by the people who use and understand that word. In my examples, I would rather take the definition of the word 'Aloha' from a native Hawaiian or at least someone who is as familiar with the word in its actual cultural context. In popular culture it would be intellectually dishonest of me to attribute the definition as a property of temerature to the word 'cool'.
For 'jihad' I will take the definition of the word as it is used by the culture for which it exists.
An excerpt from Page not found | Institute of Islamic Information and Education:
Islam does not teach nor do Muslims desire conversion of any people for fear, greed, marriage or any other form of coercion.
In conclusion, jihad in Islam is striving in the way of Allah by pen, tongue, hand, media and, if inevitable, with arms. However, jihad in Islam does not include striving for individual or national power, dominance, glory, wealth, prestige or pride.
The article stands as a whole and so I will only offer a bit here. Please follow the link for the rest of it as well as the references used by its author Dr. M. Amir Ali.
I feel like you don't even read what I write. You may feel the same so I am going to try harder to respond appropriatly to your posts. My position on your definition of jihad is clearly with regard to the sources you use to justify your position. Not all sources are created equal and your seem severly lacking in credibility with regards to this and in comparison to those from the culture in which the word is used.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-28-2005 3:02 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-29-2005 3:27 PM Jazzns has replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4154 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 69 of 300 (227156)
07-28-2005 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Faith
07-28-2005 4:12 PM


Re: Emotions vs. objectivity
Learn something instead of recycling political correctness.
http://EvC Forum: Islam does not hate christianity -->EvC Forum: Islam does not hate christianity
I haven't the time or patience to answer the kind of hateful bias that goes on at this site
--http://EvC Forum: Islam does not hate christianity -->EvC Forum: Islam does not hate christianity
I'd add you also need to realize that you are wrong, a sinner, not the righteous person you think you are.
--http://EvC Forum: Islam does not hate christianity -->EvC Forum: Islam does not hate christianity
Oh man the ignorance here is so thick I spend most of my time dealing with that
If you don't want to look it up to prove your idiotic point I will try to later to show that you are making up stuff, but there's so much of this kind of nonsense here I may not get around to it.
--http://EvC Forum: Islam does not hate christianity -->EvC Forum: Islam does not hate christianity
The Left is happy with anything that tries to kill America and our Western/Christian heritage.
--http://EvC Forum: Islam does not hate christianity -->EvC Forum: Islam does not hate christianity
quote: You are excusing genocide. You keep calling it "justice". Make no mistake, Faith, you are the one who is confused. There can never be any justification for genocide. Never.
Sometimes there is. God says so.
--http://EvC Forum: Islam does not hate christianity -->EvC Forum: Islam does not hate christianity
yes peace and love all round upto and including justifying genocide. Does that hair shirt never itch?
(Firefox users - quicknote plug-in makes this nice and quick - it collates stuff in a notepad and tags on the url at the end of each "copy")
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 28-Jul-2005 05:04 PM
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 28-Jul-2005 05:06 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 4:12 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 5:10 PM CK has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 70 of 300 (227157)
07-28-2005 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by jar
07-28-2005 9:56 AM


Re: More nonsense assertions.
So you assert. How rulers ruled is most certainly on topic. It was by asserting Christian Rights. And your scholar is but another Christian bigot.
The subject is the means of conversion, Jar. I didn't offer evidence for anything else, just that, Mohammed's war to force Islam on the reluctant. You are not addressing the point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 07-28-2005 9:56 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by jar, posted 07-28-2005 5:16 PM Faith has replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3938 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 71 of 300 (227158)
07-28-2005 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Faith
07-28-2005 4:12 PM


Re: Emotions vs. objectivity
I find it amazing that someone can both claim objectivity and yet disregard a veritable barrage of sources from a variety of reputable news agencies as biased while clinging onto a particular source that was shown repeatedly to be incorrect.
We will agree on one thing though. (I'll even admit to being emotional at times on that thread and if I recall I even admitted it then.) We will both let our behavior on that thread stand for what it is and somehow both of us will be proud of it.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 4:12 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 72 of 300 (227159)
07-28-2005 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by CK
07-28-2005 5:04 PM


Re: Emotions vs. objectivity
I see I experienced and expressed some frustration with how I was being dealt with, but no hatred. Otherwise I agree with the points I made there. Thank you for showcasing them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by CK, posted 07-28-2005 5:04 PM CK has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 73 of 300 (227161)
07-28-2005 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Faith
07-28-2005 5:04 PM


Re: More nonsense assertions.
the subject was actually "Does Islam need a Reformation". But relating to conversion, the Christian answer was very simple throughout European history, "Convert or you will be killed and if you convert the wrong way you'll be killed and we may decide to kill you anyway."
Throughout history Christianity has been a religion of war and oppression. As Christians we need to acknowledge that. None of the Muslim Conquests even came close to what has been done under Christianity.
Islam does not need a Reformation. To even ask the question is pretty silly. There are no Imperial Islamic States. There are a few Islamic terrorists, but then there are many Christian terrorists as well.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 5:04 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 07-29-2005 12:33 AM jar has replied

AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 300 (227164)
07-28-2005 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by CanadianSteve
07-28-2005 2:16 PM


Re: Context of "War" Verses.
Actually, I think you're just trying to stir up an argument. You've cut and pasted excerpts from your favorite sorurces but you also say,
Finally, before my quotes below, you simply must bear in mind that I am saying that either interpretion can be valid. Therefore I amnot actually disagreeing with you, only pointing out that your view is not necessarily correct, while, ironically, not necessarily being wrong either. Both are justifiable.
Let that be the end of it.

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This message is a reply to:
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CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 6499 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 75 of 300 (227220)
07-29-2005 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by AdminJar
07-28-2005 5:24 PM


Re: Context of "War" Verses.
Since jazzn's makes the argument that the war verses cannot possibly be properly interpeted as a call to martial war, my responses indicate that such an interpretation is as reasonable as the contrary. Because I am told to provide references in support of my positons, that i did. But more than that, i pointed out that the global islamist movement disagrees with jazzn's too. Moreover, I have indicated that it is entirely logical to see that Mohammed also disagreed. Afterall, he conquered great swaths of land, far from where he began his journey. Obviously, the people of these far flung places were not the aggressors in war against people from so far away who showed up in their lands. Or, in reply to jazzn's comment that the koran stipulates that Jews are a people of the book and therefore not subject to the death fate of unbelievers, I pointed out that Mohammed slaughtered about 1,000 Jews. These are legitimate arguments to support the view that Jihad and the War Verses are about conquering the world for Islam.
However, I also appreciate jazzn's arguments, and have seen them eloquently presented by some muslims scholars i respect, such as Akyol - whom i referenced. Thus, while I see a stronger argument for the War Verses being a call to war, I also recognize the other argument. And, most importantly, I see that both sides are legitimate, which i see in turn as the theological civil war islam has experienced through most of its history. Which is the principle reason why a debate about the need of a reformation is reasonable. In fact, I refrenced an article of one very prominent Muslim author, Schwartz, where he wonders whether his previous rejection of the need for a reformation wasn't hasty.
I saw that you referred to Islamism as a small movement. It is much more than that. It is the government in 2 states, Iran adn Sudan, and was in a third, Afghanistan. It was about to win an election in ALgeria some years ago, until the military cancelled it rather than let the islamists win. It is a powerful 5th column in many others, including nuclear pakistan and oil rich saudi Arabia. It controls most of the mosques in the west, which is how the British born and raised London bombers came to follow that ideology. It controls key islamic organizations - including, perhaps, CAIR, the most prominent one of all in the US and canada. To that end, I referenced two articles, one citing the convictions of its founder and other key players on terrorist related charges, the other citing how it was forced to tacitly acknowlede its involvement with islamism by dropping key points of a lawsuit it had launched against a web site dedicated to exposing CAIR.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by AdminJar, posted 07-28-2005 5:24 PM AdminJar has not replied

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 Message 77 by Faith, posted 07-29-2005 12:50 AM CanadianSteve has not replied

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