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Author Topic:   Why do you believe what you believe?
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 108 (226870)
07-27-2005 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Rahvin
07-27-2005 5:56 PM


Re: Uncaused beginning
What made time begin? It must have been something that does not exist in time, like a "god."
There's no reason why the universe should have come into existence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Rahvin, posted 07-27-2005 5:56 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Rahvin, posted 07-27-2005 6:46 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 108 (226871)
07-27-2005 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Chiroptera
07-27-2005 6:01 PM


Re: Uncaused beginning
nor do I have much trouble with the concept of something, like the universe, having existed for an infinite amount of time
Neither do I. You might as well say that the universe is the creator as that god is.
What I do have a lot of trouble with is the concept of something existing "before" time began, or the concept of something existing without time or space.
So do I, but there isn't any other explanation if the universe did not always exist.
Something beginning without a cause sounds magical to me.

This message is a reply to:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 78 of 108 (226873)
07-27-2005 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by robinrohan
07-27-2005 6:04 PM


Re: Uncaused beginning
You can't "cause" time. Again, that implies that something existed "before time." By definition, nothing can exist before time, as time creates the definition of the word "before."
Time is just a property of the universe, a dimention like height or width. How do you "Cause" height or width to exist? How do you exist outside of space and time and retain the ability to influence it? By definition, if something is outside of space and time it does not exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by robinrohan, posted 07-27-2005 6:04 PM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by jar, posted 07-27-2005 7:31 PM Rahvin has replied
 Message 83 by GDR, posted 07-28-2005 11:02 AM Rahvin has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 79 of 108 (226883)
07-27-2005 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Rahvin
07-27-2005 6:46 PM


Re: Uncaused beginning
Time is just a property of the universe, a dimention like height or width. How do you "Cause" height or width to exist? How do you exist outside of space and time and retain the ability to influence it? By definition, if something is outside of space and time it does not exist.
relative to those who do exist within space/time. But by definition GOD is that which is the superset that includes our universe and space/time.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Rahvin, posted 07-27-2005 6:46 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Rahvin, posted 07-27-2005 8:02 PM jar has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 80 of 108 (226887)
07-27-2005 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by jar
07-27-2005 7:31 PM


Re: Uncaused beginning
relative to those who do exist within space/time. But by definition GOD is that which is the superset that includes our universe and space/time.
But if we accept God to be a superset containing our universe with no supporting data to draw that conclusion, we could just as easily ask "What superset contains God?" This argument makes the unfounded assumption that the universe must be contained by an entity. Since the universe can be described without including God, Occam's Razor tells us He is irrelevant and should not be included.
Granted, logic can also not state that there is NOT an additional entity containing the universe. We just don't have any rational reason to think there is. Those of us who still believe in Him are forced to do so on blind, irrational faith...which is kind of the point, I think.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by jar, posted 07-27-2005 7:31 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 07-27-2005 8:04 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 81 of 108 (226888)
07-27-2005 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Rahvin
07-27-2005 8:02 PM


Re: Uncaused beginning
But by definition GOD is that which contains all. There is no superset of GOD by definition.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Rahvin, posted 07-27-2005 8:02 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 82 of 108 (226947)
07-28-2005 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by robinrohan
07-27-2005 4:34 PM


Ex-nihilo and uncaused
robinbrohan writes:
If you can explain how something can not exist and then start to exist with no outside help, then do so.
I'll have another go on this one.
By definition, the universe is all there is. There can be nothing outside the universe. The very term 'outside' has no meaning with regard to the universe. Likewise, the universe is all there ever was and will be. There can be nothing before the universe, nor can there be anything after the universe. 'Before' and 'after' are meaningless concepts without the universe.
If the universe had existed always, then it would be in a state of heat death by now. As we can see, it is not. Therefore, the universe has not existed always.
Since the universe has not existed always, it must have had a beginning. Since there can be nothing outside or before the universe, the beginning of the universe cannot have a cause.
Ergo: the universe had a beginning ex-nihilo, without a cause.

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by robinrohan, posted 07-27-2005 4:34 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by 1.61803, posted 07-28-2005 11:50 AM Parasomnium has not replied
 Message 86 by robinrohan, posted 07-28-2005 12:18 PM Parasomnium has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 83 of 108 (227051)
07-28-2005 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Rahvin
07-27-2005 6:46 PM


Re: Uncaused beginning
Rahvin writes:
You can't "cause" time. Again, that implies that something existed "before time." By definition, nothing can exist before time, as time creates the definition of the word "before."
Time is just a property of the universe, a dimention like height or width. How do you "Cause" height or width to exist? How do you exist outside of space and time and retain the ability to influence it? By definition, if something is outside of space and time it does not exist.
In light of what I have read of modern science I don't think that it is such a stretch to accept a God that is outside of time. Physicists I have read such as Brian Greene, Julian Barbour and Don Page believe that time is a series of nows and plays like a film, with each now always being with us. Here is a link to Julian Barbour's web site.
Julian Barbour
Brian Greene writes that particle entanglement not only occurs across space but may occur through time. Here is a link to an article on that.
Page Not Found
The point is, it seems that time is not what it seems. Don Page in talking about Julian Barbour's theories says that he believes that eventually we will find that not only is time an illusion but so is space. With this in mind it makes the concept of a creator outside of time and space as we know it seem very rational. (IMHO)

This message is a reply to:
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 84 of 108 (227060)
07-28-2005 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Parasomnium
07-28-2005 3:39 AM


Re: Ex-nihilo and uncaused
greetings Parasomnium,
Parasomnium writes:
Since the universe has not existed always, it must of had a beginning.
So far so good.
Parasomnium writes:
Since there can be nothing outside or before the universe, the beginning of the universe cannot have a cause.
Ut Oh...
Do you happen to know what is the final disposition of matter that enters a black hole?
Also I thought the 'cause' of the universe was the big bang.
Since there is reason to believe that such a singularity occured once, is it illogical to presume it could of occured in some other reality outside of our own cosmos?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Parasomnium, posted 07-28-2005 3:39 AM Parasomnium has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Chiroptera, posted 07-28-2005 12:09 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 108 (227065)
07-28-2005 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by 1.61803
07-28-2005 11:50 AM


What is the Big Bang?
quote:
Also I thought the 'cause' of the universe was the big bang.
Uh-oh.
I thought the popular conception of "Big Bang" is that it is the origin of the universe as an event, not the cause of that event.
At any rate, I think a more satisfying and more scientific accurate conception of Big Bang is that it is simply the description of the early universe -- hot and dense and rapidly expanding space.
I think you know more about this than I; am I being inaccurate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by 1.61803, posted 07-28-2005 11:50 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by 1.61803, posted 07-28-2005 12:22 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 108 (227067)
07-28-2005 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Parasomnium
07-28-2005 3:39 AM


Options given a finite universe
If the universe had existed always, then it would be in a state of heat death by now. As we can see, it is not. Therefore, the universe has not existed always.
I did not know this, but I'll take your word for it.
I understand what you're saying.
The choices are:
1. the universe came into being "on its own" somehow.
2. a "god" (eternal something or other--"eternal" meaning outside of space-time) caused the universe to come into existence.
Both of these possibilities strike me as equally strange and magical.
Therefore we can say that it is just as rational to believe in either option. Both are on the same level of strangeness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Parasomnium, posted 07-28-2005 3:39 AM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Parasomnium, posted 07-29-2005 3:03 AM robinrohan has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 87 of 108 (227068)
07-28-2005 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Chiroptera
07-28-2005 12:09 PM


Re: What is the Big Bang?
The big bang is a discription of the universe coming into being.
A singularity / a quantum "event" which caused space and time to begin to exist hence the universe is born. But....my whole point was the universe is a result of the singularity / big bang.
I keep seeing this "uncaused" shit and do not understand why it is so difficult to attribute the cause of the universe to the big bang or singularity if you like.
No one knows if it is caused or uncaused. period.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Chiroptera, posted 07-28-2005 12:09 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by robinrohan, posted 07-28-2005 12:32 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 108 (227077)
07-28-2005 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by 1.61803
07-28-2005 12:22 PM


Re: What is the Big Bang?
keep seeing this "uncaused" shit and do not understand why it is so difficult to attribute the cause of the universe to the big bang or singularity if you like
Well, ok. Then what caused the Big Bang?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by 1.61803, posted 07-28-2005 12:22 PM 1.61803 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by AdminJar, posted 07-28-2005 12:38 PM robinrohan has replied

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 108 (227084)
07-28-2005 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by robinrohan
07-28-2005 12:32 PM


Re: What is the Big Bang?
Well, ok. Then what caused the Big Bang?
Asked and answered. No one knows.
Let's try to move back towards the Topic please.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by robinrohan, posted 07-28-2005 12:32 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 108 (227088)
07-28-2005 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by AdminJar
07-28-2005 12:38 PM


Re: What is the Big Bang?
Asked and answered. No one knows.
Yes, but my point was that 1.6... seems to think that the statement "the Big Bang caused the universe to exist" solves the problem quite well, thank you, whereas it does nothing of the sort.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by 1.61803, posted 07-28-2005 5:10 PM robinrohan has replied

  
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