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Author Topic:   All Evolutionary scientists have been Evolutionary Indoctrinated
Rahvin
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Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 5 of 312 (227579)
07-29-2005 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by iano
07-29-2005 6:29 PM


How do people who become evolution-believing scientists know that a belief which arose in them when they were uninformed, isn't the main reason why they believe today? In other words, could indoctrination, prior to them becoming scientists, ensure that every piece of evidence, every hypothesis, every conclusion they make, is pre-filtered through evolution-tinted spectacles?
The answer to your question is the scientific method itself. The very point of the scientific method is to disprove a hypothesis. No scientific theory is "fact." No one who even so much as paid attention in High School science classes thinks that scientific theories are "Fact." They are the best descriptions that fit all of the observed evidence. A hypothesis becomes a theory when it has been tested repeatedly and is never disproven.
Does this mean that all science is flim-flam and just a best guess? No. These theories have been tested and tested and re-tested. Evolution has never been disproven. It has been modified by new data along the way, but the actual mechanism itself has never been disproven. The theory of gravity is just a theory...but you and I are still held to the ground by the force it describes, and actions that depend entirely on our understanding of gravity (space probes, satelite orbits, etc) lend support to the notion that, even if it isn't dead-on, our theory is pretty close to the truth at minimum.
If scientists believed in evolution simply because of indoctrination, they would be failing to use the scientific method itself.
Scientists who believe in evolution were indoctrinated to believe in evolution before they became scientists. And because of that, it is impossible for such scientists to claim they can to be objective about evidence which they use to argue that evolution is true. Or to put it another way, it is impossible for them to demonstrate that they aren't wearing evolution-tinted spectacles every time they weigh up evidence.
Wrong. The highest honors in science go to people who disprove commonly held theories. Newton disproved common theory about gravity. Einstein disproved the notion that newtonian physics were constant. The goal of a scientist is to invalidate common conceptions so that future theory is based more closely on fact.
The mechanism by which EI works is lifelong and repeated exposure to statements which say or imply that Evolution is true. The mechanism starts at a very early age, when there is little to prevent it exerting influence. MI takes many forms: kids nature programmes, tv ads, cartoons, friends taunts, games played, science lessons all the way through school, popular science books, science fiction, natural history programmes,toys, eminent looking scientists saying it's true, early interest hobbies in things scientific, films, magazines, .. and the fact that even the dog in the street knows it. The MI has virtually nothing which opposes it. There is no scientific alternative presented which says our existance is the result of another mechanism (or if there is, it's, relatively speaking, a side issue and not comparable to the mass-influence of the MI - the cogs and gears of which are listed above). Not even religion will necessarily affect it's workings. Many who have a faith: Christian, Buddist, Hindi etc will not consider there to be conflict between their belief and the acceptance that Evolution is true.
Irrelevant. Once an individual reaches the point in their scientific carreer where they participate in research, their goal is in fact to disprove hypotheses, even if they believe the hypothesis to be true (in other words, the testing of the theory is what prevents biased opinion from influencing experimental observation and fact).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by iano, posted 07-29-2005 6:29 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by iano, posted 07-30-2005 11:00 AM Rahvin has not replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 9 of 312 (227595)
07-29-2005 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by ringo
07-29-2005 8:06 PM


Re: What's so special about you?
What makes you immune from the indoctrination? Why are you capable of critical thought but thousands of scientists are not?
Now now, let's not make ad hominem attacks. His proposal can easily be demolished without them.
But you're right. Religion (well, biliblical literalism and fundamentalism, anyway) is all about indoctrination to the point where observable evidence is ignored in favor of preconceived notions.
Let's stick to just showing that science is not though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by ringo, posted 07-29-2005 8:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Chiroptera, posted 07-29-2005 8:14 PM Rahvin has replied
 Message 11 by ringo, posted 07-29-2005 8:22 PM Rahvin has replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 12 of 312 (227603)
07-29-2005 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Chiroptera
07-29-2005 8:14 PM


Re: What's so special about you?
I wouldn't be so sure of that. This has all the hallmarks of classic conspiracy theory -- where the arguments against indoctrination will be turned around to show just how effective the indoctrination really is.
Sure, but he would have to provide evidence to support any claim of a vast conspiracy of indoctrinated evolutionists. We have already shown, in several different posts with several different examples, that science aims to disprove its own theories to further the persuit of truth. Why would scientists latch on to evolution when they have been willing to accept things like relativity and quantum mechanics that totally rewrite previous thought?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Chiroptera, posted 07-29-2005 8:14 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by iano, posted 07-30-2005 11:55 AM Rahvin has not replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 14 of 312 (227606)
07-29-2005 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by ringo
07-29-2005 8:22 PM


Re: What's so special about you?
It's not an ad hominem attack. Did I word it badly?
My point is: if the indoctrination is so universal, how did iano avoid it?
I see. You meant to point out that if everyone were indoctrinated to believe evolution, iano should as well. It looked like you were saying that his argument is invalid because he's simply been indoctrinated into his own beliefs.
But iano is not an evolutionary scientist. He's talking about a specific subset of people - scientists, who were possibly indoctrinated by their long education on the subject.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by ringo, posted 07-29-2005 8:22 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by ringo, posted 07-29-2005 8:47 PM Rahvin has not replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 113 of 312 (228026)
07-31-2005 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by iano
07-30-2005 12:08 PM


Re: What's so special about you?
My OP points out that the vast majority of folk in the world were exposed to EI. Being exposed to indoctrination is not the same thing as 'being indoctrinated'. My contention that all evolutionary-believing scientists believe because they have been EI'd. How or why some people are not EI'd is not the issue here (although an obvious way is the case where someone just doesn't give a hoot about science). The issue is how evolutionary-believing scientists can know or can show, that their science isn't filtered through EI-tinted glasses.
iano, indoctrination may be responsible for many people's belief in evolution. Certainly highschool students do not typically examine the research themselves - they simply accept it on the authority of their teachers and textbooks.
Actual research scientists, however, the people who write research papers and modify the Theory of Evolution, who use its mechanism every day in their experiments, have done more.
As I said previously, scientists are encouraged to disprove accepted theory (whether by a small change to make sure it matches new data, or by totally disproving the entire mechanism). The very principle of science is to question everything. Theories exist to be tested. Science is, by its very nature, set to counteract any "indoctrinated" beliefs in persuit of the provable truth.
Because of this it's difficult to imagine an evoltionary scientist believing in the ToE simply because he was indoctrinateds that way. You need to provide evidence that the indoctrination actually occurs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by iano, posted 07-30-2005 12:08 PM iano has not replied

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