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Author Topic:   How can evolution explain body symmetry?
Peter van der Hoog
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 284 (203897)
04-30-2005 4:57 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Saviourmachine
06-17-2004 11:10 AM


Re: Why symmetry
Interesting would be to investigate if blind animals, like moles, show less symmetry, then other animals. Sexual selection on symmetry, for a blind animal, must be a difficult task.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Saviourmachine, posted 06-17-2004 11:10 AM Saviourmachine has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Parasomnium, posted 04-30-2005 6:07 AM Peter van der Hoog has replied

  
Peter van der Hoog
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 284 (203956)
04-30-2005 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Parasomnium
04-30-2005 6:07 AM


Re: Why symmetry
There are more ways to find out if a potential mate is symmetrical than just by sight

Please tell me, I am really curious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Parasomnium, posted 04-30-2005 6:07 AM Parasomnium has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by crashfrog, posted 04-30-2005 3:48 PM Peter van der Hoog has replied

  
Peter van der Hoog
Inactive Member


Message 146 of 284 (204054)
05-01-2005 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by crashfrog
04-30-2005 3:48 PM


Well, when a man and a woman love each other very much...
You mean by feeling eachother? How disgusting and how inaccurate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by crashfrog, posted 04-30-2005 3:48 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by crashfrog, posted 05-03-2005 11:20 PM Peter van der Hoog has replied

  
Peter van der Hoog
Inactive Member


Message 148 of 284 (204967)
05-04-2005 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by crashfrog
05-03-2005 11:20 PM


Did it occur to you that I was making a joke?
Yes, sure. But did it occur to you that I was making a joke?
Anyway, a serious reply I don't have to expect here. Smelling or feeling symmetry is out of the question. Moles are as symmetrical as other vertebrates, so sexual selection is not the main selection force for symmetry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by crashfrog, posted 05-03-2005 11:20 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by mick, posted 05-04-2005 5:42 PM Peter van der Hoog has replied
 Message 159 by Brad McFall, posted 05-24-2005 6:13 PM Peter van der Hoog has replied

  
Peter van der Hoog
Inactive Member


Message 151 of 284 (205721)
05-06-2005 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by mick
05-04-2005 5:42 PM


nice idea for a research project though, peter.
Thanks, Mick.
publish if you get a phylogenetic correlation, add to the filing cabinet if you don't.
As soon as I get the time for it.
---------------------------------
Here is a very nice a-symmetric animal:
This message has been edited by Peter van der Hoog, 05-07-2005 01:32 PM

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 Message 149 by mick, posted 05-04-2005 5:42 PM mick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by mick, posted 05-08-2005 4:16 PM Peter van der Hoog has replied

  
Peter van der Hoog
Inactive Member


Message 156 of 284 (206495)
05-09-2005 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by mick
05-08-2005 4:16 PM


can I ask what it is?
I appriciate your question, Mick. As a junior, it is nice to get some attention.
It is a sea squirts or ascidean. All sea squirts have two 'holes' or siphons, one in which water is drawn into the body (inhalent siphon), the other through which water is expelled from the body (exhalent siphon). With the water comes plankton, which is extracted in the net-like stomach before the water is expelled. These animals are therefore filter feeders.
Sea squirts are an excellent proof evolution does not care about symmetry. The only thing that matters is: Does It Work.

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 Message 152 by mick, posted 05-08-2005 4:16 PM mick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by mick, posted 05-09-2005 1:44 PM Peter van der Hoog has replied
 Message 162 by Wounded King, posted 05-26-2005 5:50 AM Peter van der Hoog has not replied

  
Peter van der Hoog
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 284 (210937)
05-24-2005 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by mick
05-09-2005 1:44 PM


Is that its real colour, or is it under UV light?
No idea, I did not take the picture myself. What do you think?
----------------
Something else, I liked this article from the New Yorker:
Why intelligent design is bad science

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 Message 157 by mick, posted 05-09-2005 1:44 PM mick has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by teratogenome, posted 07-05-2005 12:56 AM Peter van der Hoog has replied

  
Peter van der Hoog
Inactive Member


Message 160 of 284 (211155)
05-25-2005 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Brad McFall
05-24-2005 6:13 PM


Re: prior thought of moles' nose
Feeling symmetry is not impossible but a visual check is more accurate. This mole found a solution for bad eyesight:
Do you know how these moles flirt? They put their heads very near to eachother and then feel the symmetry of the tentacles.
Isn't nature beautiful?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Brad McFall, posted 05-24-2005 6:13 PM Brad McFall has replied

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 Message 161 by Brad McFall, posted 05-25-2005 1:49 PM Peter van der Hoog has not replied

  
Peter van der Hoog
Inactive Member


Message 173 of 284 (221361)
07-02-2005 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Brad McFall
06-30-2005 11:35 PM


Re: Actually, we are not symmetric in many different ways
"amorphic"? No idea what you are talking about, Brad McFall.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Brad McFall, posted 06-30-2005 11:35 PM Brad McFall has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Brad McFall, posted 07-03-2005 2:57 PM Peter van der Hoog has not replied

  
Peter van der Hoog
Inactive Member


Message 180 of 284 (223084)
07-11-2005 6:15 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by teratogenome
07-05-2005 12:56 AM


quote:
Our adding of anything at all to almost any other thing in industry is almost NEVER Darwinian. It is DESIGNED, quite painstakingly I might add, to make more money.
This is a complete misunderstanding of how design really works in human culture. Human design is a process of trial and error, and passing on successful approaches to students. In this respect it is exactly analogous not to divine creation, but to natural selection. Each time something is thought that might work, it relies either on past experience, that is, trial and error, or some leap, large or small, that is not guaranteed to be successful until it is tried out. Individually we learn by personal experience; corporately we learn by the experience of many.

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 Message 179 by teratogenome, posted 07-05-2005 12:56 AM teratogenome has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Wounded King, posted 07-11-2005 6:18 AM Peter van der Hoog has replied
 Message 182 by Wounded King, posted 07-11-2005 6:19 AM Peter van der Hoog has not replied
 Message 186 by teratogenome, posted 07-17-2005 11:33 PM Peter van der Hoog has not replied

  
Peter van der Hoog
Inactive Member


Message 183 of 284 (223151)
07-11-2005 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Wounded King
07-11-2005 6:18 AM


A Lamarckian? Please, I am not even a Memetist!
Your "loosely analogous" I find much too strong. Would you agree with "pretty analogous"?

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 Message 181 by Wounded King, posted 07-11-2005 6:18 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
Peter van der Hoog
Inactive Member


Message 272 of 284 (227770)
07-30-2005 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by PurpleYouko
07-29-2005 12:13 PM


Re: MI
Suppose you suddenly heard a voice saying: "Hello PurpleYouko, here is God, the creator of the universe, your mother was right, the world was created only 5000 years ago." How to deal with such a voice and in addition: don't you agree with me that Iano is a true scientist, because:
1) Iano observes that God behaves regularly and he observes a pattern to this phenomenon.
2) Iano studies God and tries to figure out how God works
3) Iano tries to figure out how God works by coming up with ideas that explain what we see.
4) Iano is testing his ideas about God by noting what else we should see if his ideas are correct and then checking if we see those ideas.
What I want to say: How to deal with people who feel the existince of a God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by PurpleYouko, posted 07-29-2005 12:13 PM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by nator, posted 07-30-2005 5:32 PM Peter van der Hoog has replied
 Message 276 by PurpleYouko, posted 08-01-2005 8:55 AM Peter van der Hoog has replied

  
Peter van der Hoog
Inactive Member


Message 275 of 284 (227964)
07-30-2005 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by nator
07-30-2005 5:32 PM


Back to the topic.
So, Peter, how do you think Evolution can or cannot explain body symmetry?
Evolution explains body symmetry, as gravity explains how a stone rolls of a mountain.
This message has been edited by Peter van der Hoog, 08-14-2005 07:16 PM

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Peter van der Hoog
Inactive Member


Message 277 of 284 (230564)
08-06-2005 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by PurpleYouko
08-01-2005 8:55 AM


Re: MI
HUUHH?
You never feared God’s voice?
I don't recall him mentioning God at all.
Iano is a Christian. The existince of God is a reality for him.
What? Are you reading the same thread as me?
Yes, 200% sure.
No he isn't
Yes, he is. Iano is testing his ideas about God by noting what else we should see if his ideas are correct and then checking if we see those ideas. Read all his messages and you will agree with me.
and what does any of this have to do with the thread anyway?
Your reactions have no relation with symmetry, so who is blaming who? At least I am thinking of symmetry, while typing these sentences.
I don't have the faintest idea seeing as how feelings of any kind are not scientifically defensible.
Sorry? Anyway, all I said was: How to deal with a person like Iano, who thinks God is a reality. Is that such a difficult remark/question?
Besides which this is even way off topic for the OT part of the thread and it has absolutely zip to do with body symmetry.
At least I am thinking of symmetry, while writing this and I did make some relevant remarks, regarding body symmetry. You haven't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by PurpleYouko, posted 08-01-2005 8:55 AM PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by PurpleYouko, posted 08-08-2005 8:47 AM Peter van der Hoog has not replied
 Message 279 by Omnivorous, posted 08-08-2005 8:06 PM Peter van der Hoog has replied

  
Peter van der Hoog
Inactive Member


Message 280 of 284 (233165)
08-14-2005 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Omnivorous
08-08-2005 8:06 PM


A wonderful topic
For sure, it would make a wonderful topic but with only you and me, it will be like mum and dad discussing Santa Claus.
What we need is:
- An atheist, with a scientific approach and no resentment versus religion
- A religious person, with a scientific approach, and no resentment versus atheism.
Neither Iano nor PurpleYouko fall within those categories and God knows about you but I still resent the people who tried to force these horrible religious believes onto me.
What do you think comes more natural, to be an atheist or to believe in God? Somebody once told me that to believe in God requires a lot of energy. In addition, who do you think lives longer, an atheist or a believer in an afterlife? When a believer suffers tremendous pain but he knows paradise is waiting for him, he would give in, don’t you agree?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Omnivorous, posted 08-08-2005 8:06 PM Omnivorous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by jar, posted 08-14-2005 2:08 PM Peter van der Hoog has replied

  
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