Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,794 Year: 4,051/9,624 Month: 922/974 Week: 249/286 Day: 10/46 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Moral Argument for God
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 259 of 279 (228057)
07-31-2005 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by General Nazort
07-30-2005 11:47 PM


No Third Option
Either you judge God's nature to be good because it is God's or there is some external standard by which God can be judged "good". So we come back to the same dilemma.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by General Nazort, posted 07-30-2005 11:47 PM General Nazort has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by General Nazort, posted 08-01-2005 12:42 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 266 of 279 (228322)
08-01-2005 3:37 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by General Nazort
08-01-2005 12:42 AM


Re: No Third Option
quote:
One must eventually say that God's nature is judged to be good by intuition:
Regardless of how one grounds the concept of goodness, another could always ask, "But what makes that notion good?" To avoid a vicious regress, one must eventually appeal to some irreducible, primitive concept known by intuition.
This avoids both horns of the dilemma.
To avoid the infinite regress you need to give a foundation - what you call "an irreducible primitive concept". However by resorting to intuition you simply evade saying what that concept actually refers to. Because intuition is subjective it cannot be the actual foundation of an objective morality.
Thus you only avoid the dilemma by evading the question - not by providing a genuine resolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by General Nazort, posted 08-01-2005 12:42 AM General Nazort has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by General Nazort, posted 08-01-2005 11:07 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 271 of 279 (228447)
08-01-2005 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by General Nazort
08-01-2005 11:07 AM


Re: No Third Option
You're confusing ontology and epistemology.
The question is not how we know what is moral (epistemology) but what is the foundation of morality (ontology).
(And of course we have other questions - for instance if my moral intuition says that an act attributed to God in the Bible is morally wrong should I question the Bible or my moral intuition ? Either answer raises problems for your stated view).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by General Nazort, posted 08-01-2005 11:07 AM General Nazort has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by General Nazort, posted 08-01-2005 11:38 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 275 of 279 (228656)
08-02-2005 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by General Nazort
08-01-2005 11:38 PM


Re: No Third Option
quote:
For the sake of my argument, let us assume that God is in fact good. With this assumption do you see how the two horns of the dilemma can be avoided?
No, because it can't be. Either you arbitrarily call God "good" (second horn) or there is a moral standard by which God is judged good (first horn).
quote:
For the sake of my argument, let us assume that God is in fact good.
With this assumption do you see how the two horns of the dilemma can be avoided?
If God is IN FACT good this is the first horn. If you are simply assumning that God is good it is the second horn. So, no you don't avouid the dilemma.
quote:
The first horn is avoided because a good God would be definition only command what is good.
That IS the first horn. There is an independant standard of "good", which God (by his nature) follows.
quote:
The second horn is avoided because there is no "higher"
goodness by which we judge God to be good - we simply assume that God's nature is already good, and thus there is nothing "higher" than God to conflict with the view that God is the highest power in existence.
So IN FACT you are choosing the second horn but pretending to take the first. If you simply decree that God's nature is "good" whatever it is it is meaningless to say that God is "in fact good". What you have actually done is to redefine "good" to mean "according to God's nature" - which is the second horn.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by General Nazort, posted 08-01-2005 11:38 PM General Nazort has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024