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Author Topic:   How do Christians deal with the violence in the Bible?
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 221 (228620)
08-01-2005 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by General Nazort
08-01-2005 7:30 PM


axioms
quote:
does creating something from nothing give you ownership of what you created?
I don't know: it seems strange speaking of ownership of conscious entities with free will, who have the capacity to feel happiness and contentment as well as misery and fustration. I'm trying to think what it would be like if I could create life ex nihilo; I can't imagine having this kind of proprietory feelings.
-
quote:
Like you said earlier, to me the connection is obvious while to you it is not.
In mathematics, we would call this an axiom. An axiom is one of the initial assumptions that cannot be proven; it can only be assumed because it is self-evident. However, the exact opposite assumption can also be assumed if it is "self-evident", giving rise to another, different logically consistent system. In other words, you may have to make this assumption in order to get your arguments to start, but if someone else doesn't accept your assumption then your argument is not going to be convincing.

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Replies to this message:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.2


Message 77 of 221 (228868)
08-02-2005 2:06 PM


Just an addition to the list of atrocities I mentioned in my opening post.
quote:
Psalms 137:9
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
So, apparently, God approved of taking babies and hitting them with rocks.
Unless, of course, the authors of the Bible used their own perspectives and were not, in fact, divinely inspired.
If the Bible is literally true, how can this be justified? How could smashing babies against rocks possibly have any moral justification?
Just some context - here is the rest of Psalm 137.
quote:
137:1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion. By the waters of Babylon
137:2 We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof.
137:3 For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song; and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion.
137:4 How shall we sing the LORD's song in a strange land?
137:5 If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.
137:6 If I do not remember thee, let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy.
137:7 Remember, O LORD, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof.
137:8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.
137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
No, it doesn't say that they actually did smash babies against the rocks. They just said God would approve and it would be a good thing to do.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 78 of 221 (228894)
08-02-2005 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Rahvin
08-02-2005 2:06 PM


It's a cry to God to avenge them against their enemies, the Babylonians, for justice against those who had dealt with them unmercifully. A case of a call for "what goes around comes around" to put it most simplistically.
From the Commentary by Matthew Henry:
The pious Jews in Babylon, having afflicted themselves with the thoughts of the ruins of Jerusalem, here please themselves with the prospect of the ruin of her impenitent implacable enemies; but this not from a spirit of revenge, but from a holy zeal for the glory of God and the honour of his kingdom.
I. The Edomites will certainly be reckoned with, and all others that were accessaries to the destruction of Jerusalem, that were aiding and abetting, that helped forward the affliction (Zec. 1:15) and triumphed in it, that said, in the day of Jerusalem, the day of her judgment, "Rase it, rase it to the foundations; down with it, down with it; do not leave one stone upon another.’’ Thus they made the Chaldean army more furious, who were already so enraged that they needed no spur. Thus they put shame upon Israel, who would be looked upon as a people worthy to be cut off when their next neighbours had such an ill-will to them. And all this was a fruit of the old enmity of Esau against Jacob, because he got the birthright and the blessing, and a branch of that more ancient enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent: Lord, remember them, says the psalmist, which is an appeal to his justice against them. Far be it from us to avenge ourselves, if ever it should be in our power, but we will leave it to him who has said, Vengeance is mine. Note, Those that are glad at calamities, especially the calamities of Jerusalem, shall not go unpunished. Those that are confederate with the persecutors of good people, and stir them up, and set them on, and are pleased with what they do, shall certainly be called to an account for it against another day, and God will remember it against them.
II. Babylon is the principal, and it will come to her turn too to drink of the cup of tremblings, the very dregs of it (v. 8, 9): O daughter of Babylon! proud and secure as thou art, we know well, by the scriptures of truth, thou art to be destroyed, or (as Dr. Hammond reads it) who art the destroyer. The destroyers shall be destroyed, Rev. 13:10. And perhaps it is with reference to this that the man of sin, the head of the New-Testament Babylon, is called a son of perdition, 2 Th. 2:3. The destruction of Babylon being foreseen as a sure destruction (thou art to be destroyed), it is spoken of, 1. As a just destruction. She shall be paid in her own coin: "Thou shalt be served as thou hast served us, as barbarously used by the destroyers as we have been by thee,’’ See Rev. 18:6. Let not those expect to find mercy who, when they had power, did not show mercy. 2. As an utter destruction. The very little ones of Babylon, when it is taken by storm, and all in it are put to the sword, shall be dashed to pieces by the enraged and merciless conqueror. None escape if these little ones perish. Those are the seed of another generation; so that, if they be cut off, the ruin will be not only total, as Jerusalem’s was, but final. It is sunk like a millstone into the sea, never to rise.
This message has been edited by Faith, 08-02-2005 04:03 PM

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Replies to this message:
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General Nazort
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 221 (228908)
08-02-2005 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Chiroptera
08-01-2005 10:04 PM


Re: axioms
In mathematics, we would call this an axiom. An axiom is one of the initial assumptions that cannot be proven; it can only be assumed because it is self-evident. However, the exact opposite assumption can also be assumed if it is "self-evident", giving rise to another, different logically consistent system. In other words, you may have to make this assumption in order to get your arguments to start, but if someone else doesn't accept your assumption then your argument is not going to be convincing.
Assuming the axiom that God has the right to take life since he created life, do you find my argument convincing?

The LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

This message is a reply to:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 80 of 221 (228923)
08-02-2005 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Faith
08-02-2005 3:56 PM


Faith writes:
It's a cry to God to avenge them against their enemies, the Babylonians, for justice against those who had dealt with them unmercifully. A case of a call for "what goes around comes around" to put it most simplistically.
This hardly squares with love your enemies and turning the other cheek.
The big difference in any conflict where we are called on to kill others is the motivation. If it is for revenge I suggest that it is wrong. If it is to protect the freedoms of ourselves and others it may well be justified.

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 Message 78 by Faith, posted 08-02-2005 3:56 PM Faith has replied

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 633 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 81 of 221 (228924)
08-02-2005 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Faith
08-02-2005 3:56 PM


And that makes it right and proper?? Do you REALLY think so?

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 Message 78 by Faith, posted 08-02-2005 3:56 PM Faith has replied

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 633 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 82 of 221 (228926)
08-02-2005 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by General Nazort
08-02-2005 4:26 PM


Re: axioms
In that case, you are saying that morality is subjective. .. since it is by the whim.
You will also then say since a woman gives birth to a child, she has the right to destroy it... using that same logic.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 83 of 221 (228927)
08-02-2005 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by GDR
08-02-2005 5:01 PM


It's a cry to God to avenge them against their enemies, the Babylonians, for justice against those who had dealt with them unmercifully. A case of a call for "what goes around comes around" to put it most simplistically.
This hardly squares with love your enemies and turning the other cheek.
I'm not entirely sure that's so. The Jews treated their Babylonian captors with utmost respect and deference, they themselves did not do any killing. Nevertheless under Christ we don't pray for God's vengeance any more, but that God will have mercy and save our enemies.
The big difference in any conflict where we are called on to kill others is the motivation. If it is for revenge I suggest that it is wrong. If it is to protect the freedoms of ourselves and others it may well be justified.
They WEREN'T called on to kill others. They were calling on GOD to avenge them and avenge His own honor.
"Vengeance is MINE saith the LORD", not ours.

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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.2


Message 84 of 221 (228930)
08-02-2005 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Faith
08-02-2005 5:07 PM


They were calling on GOD to avenge them and avenge His own honor.
'scuse me.
The quote was:
quote:
137:8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.
137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
Not "Please God, kill their babies." They said "when we get our revenge, we'll be be appeased by smashing their babies on rocks. God, get us free so we can do horrible things like that to make us feel better."
Nevertheless under Christ we don't pray for God's vengeance any more, but that God will have mercy and save our enemies.
So you agree that the Bible seems to have some seperation point where God turns from a vengeful, muderous human-sacrifice blood-god into the loving, merciful, turn-the-other-cheek God?
I think the second description is the true God of the Bible, and that the first is the result of people blaming everything that happens on His direct intervention.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 08-02-2005 5:07 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 85 of 221 (228931)
08-02-2005 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by ramoss
08-02-2005 5:05 PM


I didn't say anything about right and proper, I was simply putting it in context where it has a MEANING, rather than this meaningless bloodthirstiness that is otherwise attributed to it.
The cries for vengeance in the psalms are unsettling to most Christians, and we don't pray those psalms as the spirit of Christ calls for salvation, not condemnation.
But we know that in the end God DOES punish nations for their violence against others, and in this case against His people. I think it's understandable that people so badly treated desire revenge on their enemies, and in fact it's really remarkable that they don't seek it themselves but put it in God's hands.

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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.2


Message 86 of 221 (228932)
08-02-2005 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Faith
08-02-2005 5:07 PM


As an aside, I find it incredibly odd that evangelists in general are anti-abortion, because abortion kills babies...
While in the Bible God tells people to kill their children (after they are born) for the slightest provocation. Unruly and disrespectful? Stone him.

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 Message 83 by Faith, posted 08-02-2005 5:07 PM Faith has replied

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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.2


Message 87 of 221 (228933)
08-02-2005 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Faith
08-02-2005 5:17 PM


The cries for vengeance in the psalms are unsettling to most Christians, and we don't pray those psalms as the spirit of Christ calls for salvation, not condemnation.
But Christ is God. How can the spirit of Christ call for forgiveness and turning the other cheek, and then "diviely inspire" someone to write about smaching babies on rocks?!

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 88 of 221 (228934)
08-02-2005 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Rahvin
08-02-2005 5:15 PM


137:8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.
137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
Not "Please God, kill their babies." They said "when we get our revenge, we'll be be appeased by smashing their babies on rocks. God, get us free so we can do horrible things like that to make us feel better."
Not at all. It's saying that those who do this dirty work will be blessed in doing it for God but it's not asking to BE that person. The Jews themselves were not asking to do it and in fact they never did. But God did bring destruction to the Babylonians by other means, by the Medo-Persians as a matter of fact.
However, I can't help but remark on this self-righteousness being expressed by all of you here. Matthew Henry's commentary says that the idea of the infants being dashed on the stones is a way of asking for the total annihilation of Babylon, leaving no one alive. In other words it has a meaning beyond the literal image. But just sticking to the literal image, if you had suffered great violence and loss at the hand of an enemy, wouldn't you desire the same to be done to the enemy that did this to you? Where's all this "holier-than-thou" coming from? All we protected people who haven't suffered such violence against us have the luxury of thinking we are above revenge it seems. Wait until it happens to you and then tell me you have perfect self-control and no desire whatever to go slaughter those who did it to you. Tell me that you would even be above hoping that God would punish them. In Christ we do have that strength, but it is nevertheless against our fallen nature and we have to work hard to cultivate it with God's help. Don't brag that you have that strength until you've been tested.
Nevertheless under Christ we don't pray for God's vengeance any more, but that God will have mercy and save our enemies.
So you agree that the Bible seems to have some seperation point where God turns from a vengeful, muderous human-sacrifice blood-god into the loving, merciful, turn-the-other-cheek God?
No, same God, new purpose unfolding according to prophecy. Old Testament teaches His law and His retribution. In exactly the same spirit as the New Testament, however, it also teaches very strongly His mercy, and His help and support to all who trust Him and call upon Him, as over and over shows how He delivers those who call upon Him. Also His desire to save, and He promises to send a savior. Absolutely the same God.
I think the second description is the true God of the Bible, and that the first is the result of people blaming everything that happens on His direct intervention.
Big mistake. The whole Bible is about God. Big mistake not to learn that He is a God of vengeance and wrath as well as a God of mercy and salvation. Both are affirmed throughout Old and New Testaments, but mercy finally became fully available to all through Jesus Christ.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 89 of 221 (228936)
08-02-2005 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Rahvin
08-02-2005 5:18 PM


As an aside, I find it incredibly odd that evangelists in general are anti-abortion, because abortion kills babies...
While in the Bible God tells people to kill their children (after they are born) for the slightest provocation. Unruly and disrespectful? Stone him.
"Slightest provocation?" Methinks you exaggerate extremely.
However, answer is: Difference between innocent and guilty, which so many today seem to have so much trouble with. Save the innocent, punish the guilty. Simple. Makes sense to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Rahvin, posted 08-02-2005 5:18 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Rahvin, posted 08-02-2005 5:49 PM Faith has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.2


Message 90 of 221 (228937)
08-02-2005 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Faith
08-02-2005 5:36 PM


It's saying that those who do this dirty work will be blessed in doing it for God
Did you even READ what you just said?! Those who bash the babies against rocks will be BLESSED?!
However, I can't help but remark on this self-righteousness being expressed by all of you here. Matthew Henry's commentary says that the idea of the infants being dashed on the stones is a way of asking for the total annihilation of Babylon, leaving no one alive.
Total annihilation. Which means the kids still need to die. And according to you that's a good thing? Killing children? Babies? Infants?
But just sticking to the literal image, if you had suffered great violence and loss at the hand of an enemy, wouldn't you desire the same to be done to the enemy that did this to you? Where's all this "holier-than-thou" coming from?
How does God go from vengeful to "turn the other cheek?"
No, same God, new purpose unfolding according to prophecy. Old Testament teaches His law and His retribution. In exactly the same spirit as the New Testament, however, it also teaches very strongly His mercy, and His help and support to all who trust Him and call upon Him, as over and over shows how He delivers those who call upon Him. Also His desire to save, and He promises to send a savior. Absolutely the same God.
...except that one God glories in genocide and murder, and the other tells us to forgive and love our enemies.
I agree that it's one God - I just don't think the violent description of God has anything to do with Him.
Big mistake. The whole Bible is about God. Big mistake not to learn that He is a God of vengeance and wrath as well as a God of mercy and salvation. Both are affirmed throughout Old and New Testaments, but mercy finally became fully available to all through Jesus Christ.
And I would say that you are making the big mistake in taking the Bible literally as infallably true and not seeing that it was written by human beings who put their own spin on things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 08-02-2005 5:36 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Faith, posted 08-02-2005 6:20 PM Rahvin has replied

  
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