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Author Topic:   Is ID Scientific? (was "Abusive Assumptions")
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 292 (229422)
08-03-2005 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Evopeach
08-03-2005 6:37 PM


Re: Argument by Very Big Words
quote:
You have to have a little imagination for the analogy
That, actually, is my point: the terms are used as analogies to explain how the whole system operates. "Messenger RNA" are not little cowboys riding ponies with letters in their saddle bags, nor is DNA a "code" that sends meaningful "information" from a sentient sender to a sentient reciever.
You are the one letting analogies get in the way of understanding how the system works.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Evopeach, posted 08-03-2005 6:37 PM Evopeach has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 292 (229423)
08-03-2005 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Yaro
08-03-2005 6:38 PM


Re: Argument by Very Big Words
I suppose that we could call the undulations in the landscape a "code" that tells a river which exact path to take when to flows into the ocean.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Yaro, posted 08-03-2005 6:38 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Yaro, posted 08-03-2005 6:47 PM Chiroptera has not replied
 Message 123 by Evopeach, posted 08-04-2005 12:13 PM Chiroptera has replied

Evopeach
Member (Idle past 6613 days)
Posts: 224
From: Stroud, OK USA
Joined: 08-03-2005


Message 93 of 292 (229424)
08-03-2005 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Yaro
08-03-2005 6:38 PM


Re: Argument by Very Big Words
Yes so inefficient that the speed of replication of 3,000,000 base pairs every few minutes with accuracy that exceed the current world-wide six sigma asperation of quality. Pitiful!!
Please don't even try to say that the genetic code is not a code or ribosomes do not read the m-rna, I mean how many scientific texts, papers or citations do want me to provide to drown your rediculous statement where those terms are precisely used and explained as such with the exact terminology.
I think this sort of obfuscation and meaningless assertion is not worth my time.
any real adults out there

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Yaro, posted 08-03-2005 6:38 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Yaro, posted 08-03-2005 6:53 PM Evopeach has not replied
 Message 96 by Evopeach, posted 08-03-2005 6:54 PM Evopeach has not replied
 Message 98 by AdminNosy, posted 08-03-2005 6:59 PM Evopeach has not replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 94 of 292 (229426)
08-03-2005 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Chiroptera
08-03-2005 6:46 PM


Re: Argument by Very Big Words
precicely my point. Good illustration.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Chiroptera, posted 08-03-2005 6:46 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 95 of 292 (229430)
08-03-2005 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Evopeach
08-03-2005 6:46 PM


Re: Argument by Very Big Words
Yes so inefficient that the speed of replication of 3,000,000 base pairs every few minutes with accuracy that exceed the current world-wide six sigma asperation of quality. Pitiful!!
This is a pointless statistic that doesn't even begin to address the points I raised.
DNA is not a meaningful code, it is written in an inefficient "language" and riddled with errors. DNA replication isn't perfect BTW, it is error prone.
DNA does not communicate any information, as I said before it's a catalyst in a chemical reaction. Chrioptera made a good analogy with the topography 'coding' the river.
Please don't even try to say that the genetic code is not a code or ribosomes do not read the m-rna, I mean how many scientific texts, papers or citations do want me to provide to drown your rediculous statement where those terms are precisely used and explained as such with the exact terminology.
Terminology isn't the issue. We may call it a "sunrise" but that dosn't mean the sun is orbiting us does it?
I think this sort of obfuscation and meaningless assertion is not worth my time.
My my, you certainly do think highly of yourself don't you? I'm so sorry Mr. Humble, I thought we were ARGUING IN GOOD FAITH!
Have a look at the Forum Rules before toeing the Ad Homenim line.
any real adults out there
If you keep using this "tone" I'm sure you will attract the wrath of the admins. I don't think you know what kind of forum you are on but you will be surprised to know that many of us aren't only adults but scientists as well.
This message has been edited by Yaro, 08-03-2005 06:56 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Evopeach, posted 08-03-2005 6:46 PM Evopeach has not replied

Evopeach
Member (Idle past 6613 days)
Posts: 224
From: Stroud, OK USA
Joined: 08-03-2005


Message 96 of 292 (229433)
08-03-2005 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Evopeach
08-03-2005 6:46 PM


Re: Argument by Very Big Words
Or you could just just substitute dextro forms of amino acids into the dna strands and since it is absolutely provably true that they are chemically and entropically absolutely indistinguishable by Chemical means then the DNA RNA ribozome process will work just fine I mean since its purely chemical and enzymatic and such.
Oops, it turns out one base pair substitution of dextro gums the entire works. Sorry ! Won't work not ever. Has to be 100% optically pure to work. See its a specific code of a distinct nature.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Evopeach, posted 08-03-2005 6:46 PM Evopeach has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Yaro, posted 08-03-2005 6:57 PM Evopeach has not replied
 Message 99 by Chiroptera, posted 08-03-2005 7:16 PM Evopeach has not replied
 Message 107 by Wounded King, posted 08-04-2005 5:07 AM Evopeach has replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 97 of 292 (229435)
08-03-2005 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Evopeach
08-03-2005 6:54 PM


Are you arguing with yourself?
Why do you keep replying to yourself? Are there two evopeaches?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Evopeach, posted 08-03-2005 6:54 PM Evopeach has not replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 98 of 292 (229436)
08-03-2005 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Evopeach
08-03-2005 6:46 PM


tone
The approach you are taking and the tenor of your posts are not conducive to civil discussing. Please do not continue in this way.
You will be given some degree of latitude being new but at some point you will lose posting privileges for a day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Evopeach, posted 08-03-2005 6:46 PM Evopeach has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Chiroptera, posted 08-03-2005 7:43 PM AdminNosy has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 292 (229448)
08-03-2005 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Evopeach
08-03-2005 6:54 PM


Re: Argument by Very Big Words
This doesn't have anything to do with the meaning of the words "code", "information", or anything else. Are you now discussing something else?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Evopeach, posted 08-03-2005 6:54 PM Evopeach has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 100 of 292 (229454)
08-03-2005 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Evopeach
08-03-2005 6:27 PM


Re: Argument by Very Big Words
Perhaps a simpler analogy will help.
Why would an analogy help? The subject is DNA, not machine shops. Try to stay on topic, ok?
It would be better for you to actually study DNA, not draw specious comparisons to machine shops and the like.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Evopeach, posted 08-03-2005 6:27 PM Evopeach has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Chiroptera, posted 08-03-2005 7:23 PM crashfrog has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 292 (229455)
08-03-2005 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by crashfrog
08-03-2005 7:20 PM


Re: Argument by Very Big Words
Especially since Evopeach seems to have trouble equating analogy with identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by crashfrog, posted 08-03-2005 7:20 PM crashfrog has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 292 (229463)
08-03-2005 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by AdminNosy
08-03-2005 6:59 PM


In all fairness...
I was a little impatient with Evopeach's initial posts (sorry, but I deeply dislike any anti-evolution argument that uses "information"). She (or he?) may have misinterpreted my impatience with hostility and felt that it was fair to respond in kind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by AdminNosy, posted 08-03-2005 6:59 PM AdminNosy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Yaro, posted 08-03-2005 7:51 PM Chiroptera has replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 103 of 292 (229467)
08-03-2005 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Chiroptera
08-03-2005 7:43 PM


Re: In all fairness...
Meh... I think she/he may have been a hit and run.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Chiroptera, posted 08-03-2005 7:43 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Chiroptera, posted 08-03-2005 8:07 PM Yaro has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 292 (229470)
08-03-2005 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Yaro
08-03-2005 7:51 PM


That's too bad.
Darn. I was just getting into the discussion, too. As usual, the discussion helped a lot in allowing me to put a finer point on this topic. I want to thank Evopeach for bringing up the word "analogy" -- that was exactly the word I needed to make the point understandable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Yaro, posted 08-03-2005 7:51 PM Yaro has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Evopeach, posted 08-04-2005 1:12 AM Chiroptera has not replied

Evopeach
Member (Idle past 6613 days)
Posts: 224
From: Stroud, OK USA
Joined: 08-03-2005


Message 105 of 292 (229540)
08-04-2005 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Chiroptera
08-03-2005 8:07 PM


Re: That's too bad.
Earlier before attending delightful musical I carefully expressed a hypothesis, corrolaries , predictive value and falsifiability.
Just once I would like to see if anyone in your camp could reply with a rational rebuttal that referenced real publications of experimentation valid and reviewed that proved the proposal invalid.
There is something wrong with a group of people who cannot and will not defend their position with other than form over substance, dismissive assertions without proof, redefining away the problem in contrast to the existing body of work they ascribe to.
My guess is that you are not serious people and truly unable to discuss rationally.
Its not in the spirit of the forum as stated at introduction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Chiroptera, posted 08-03-2005 8:07 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Yaro, posted 08-04-2005 9:36 AM Evopeach has not replied
 Message 138 by crashfrog, posted 08-04-2005 4:55 PM Evopeach has replied

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