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Author | Topic: God's chosen and predestination. | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Glordag2 Inactive Member |
I was having a religious discussion with my friend (a devout Christian that was formerly Baptist and is now more Episcipalean(sp?)...I, myself, am an agnostic for those that don't remember), and for once we found a couple of topics that we can agree on. I found them both very interesting, and it brought up a couple of questions in my mind about the doctrines that are taught in churches and other religious arenas today.
For now I won't post the actual verses cited, as I don't remember which ones they were exactly and I don't have them with me. First, we meddled around with the idea of predestination. My friend originally thought this idea to be ludacris, but after reading the Bible more thoroughly, has come to accept it as God's truth. This is based off of the numerous references to God's will, path, and whatever other words that seem to indicate a plan you might come up with. I would assume the main problem with this for most Christians would revolve around the very nature of humanity and our ability to sin and choose whether to follow God/Christ or not. This is understandable, and brought us into our next point. There are numerous references to the "chosen people" in the Bible and even God's plan for offspring in a couple of places. The passages seem to be worded as to indicate that God preselects who will go to heaven and who will not. Possessives like "my people" or "his people" or what-have-you seem to support this. We came up with an idea that perhaps removes some of the loopholes or errancies within the Bible. What if God only concerned himself with his chosen? What if he didn't have to love, care for, etc. those of which are not his chosen? This, in a way, leaves room for both free will and predestination. In addition, it kind of helps answer the questions revolving around "how could God be caring if...?". Maybe the ones that aren't chosen by God are chosen by another god from another religion? Could it be possible to accomodate all religions into one global religion using the same principles in others? What about evolution? This makes for an interesting scenerio: maybe God's chosen were created but others evolved or were created by another deity? I don't give any of this a grain of salt, but it just seems like something interesting that perhaps hasn't been explored all that much. Any and all feedback is appreciated. I don't really believe any of this, but I thought it was pretty interesting. Citing verses and passages is recommended, and I'll try and do the same if asked (it could take a few days, though.) This message has been edited by Glordag2, 08-08-2005 08:18 AM This message has been edited by Glordag2, 08-08-2005 08:20 AM
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AdminBrian Inactive Member |
Hi Glordag,
Could you perhaps focus the topic in a little, there appears to be too many points for an opening post (check out the number of question marks!)? Also, it looks as if there are actually two topics here: 1. Predestination. 2. The Nature of Hell. Perhaps you would like to merge them, but I can see difficulties with having both these topics in the one thread. You are welcome to open separate threads if you wish. But, try honing it down a little, there are too many questions in the OP, and this would certainly lead to many off-topic posts. AdminBrian.
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Glordag2 Inactive Member |
I took out the bit about hell. I figured since the chosen bit was somewhat related to predestination I should/could keep that in there. Let me know if you need it narrowed down any more.
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AdminBrian Inactive Member |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
The Bible is pretty clear; "God so loves the world..."
Now, the idea He only really loves and died for the elect is not a new one, and is one of the 5 points of hyper-Reformed theology, which is very good in some respects, but imo, is not entirely accurate on that point. It's true there are verses like "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated." But John 3:16 is true too, in God so loved the world, and Jesus exhibited love even for sinners that were not going to follow Him. He healed 10 lepers, but only one came back to give thanks, for example. Many are "called", but few "chosen." So He holds out His invitation and love to the many "called" and not just the "chosen." But here is te dilemna and something both true and for many hard to understand and some consider it heretical. Hell is real, let me preface my comments with that. But God is not limited by time. The Bible says "He will have all men to be saved and come into the knowledge of the truth"; that He "works all things after the good pleasure of His will", etc,... Let's think of the universe according the modern perspective of space-time. In that perspective, the earth is not just a sphere in the point of time, but is a streak in space-time. A person then exists from God's perspective, as in the past, present, and future, as someone along a path. We assume that once the past goes by, it's gone because it is from our perspective, but in reality, the past is still there from God's perspective. We see this idea in relativity. If a photon were sentient, it would not experience time at all, but what we call time would just be present spaces spread out, sort of folds in space if you would. So from that perspective, the past, present, and future is all space and all present. If that's the perspective of the photon, then it is a real perspective, and regardless, God is not limited by time since He created it. He makes all things new, right? So it is true that God elects and uses extraordinary circumstances to save the elect in a certain time-line and that the rest are not saved because even when presented with the opportunity, for whatever reason, they are not ready to accept as the elect are. Those that reject the truth do indeed go to hell and from that point on, it appears to be forever and ever. But let's back up a minute. From God's perspective, a person is still living as well in what we call the past. Think of it like a movie. God can still intervene in the past, which would remove part of the future from that point on, including the present hell of the man consigned there, and thus "make all things new" and give someone a new start, effectively erasing part of the time-line, and electing someone. This is a mystery I hesitate to discuss on an on-line forum, but this is how it works. This message has been edited by randman, 08-08-2005 11:28 AM
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CK Member (Idle past 4150 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
Interesting question - it's one that's puzzled me for a way. If the christian Godhead is all powerful, he must therefore know the outcome every event from the start to end of time - he already knows who will pick him and who will not. That to me raises another question - what the point of the rest of us?
It seems to be that our purpose (the disbelievers) is to avoid a planet fall of believers - because if everyone believes, who is going to question faith? and if no-one questions is that faith? As far as I can see the God you describe (and the one in the bible) creates the rest of us as props in play. A play where he knows all of the props will be burnt at the end. Think about it, the christian god creates all of us knowing the outcome of our existance. Surely far better for most of us to have never existed. Therefore the christian God creates most of us to burn in hell.
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Glordag2 Inactive Member |
Your points on John 3:16 make sense, and we actually discussed that, as well. What is described as "the world" in biblical terms isn't necessarily the world as we know it today. Those who wrote the Bible had a very different mindframe of "the world", and indeed, might have only meant it to be the world which they knew inside of their political or social boundries. Another idea is that loving "the world" doesn't necessarily mean loving each and every thing in it. This would be akin to somoene creating a work of art out of bad clay or paint. They might love their work, but hate the medium with which it was made.
Your timeline idea makes sense to a degree, but I certainly don't see any references to such a thing in the Bible. I think passages more likely suggest a predetermined ending of eiter heaven or hell (or something else entirely?) for each person.
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Glordag2 Inactive Member |
Interesting. I suppose that is another viable alternative. I would much rather like to think that other religions could be incorporated into one, however (;. Or perhaps, in being props we have no souls capable of transcending the doors of heaven or hell. This could potentially open the door for reincarnation or some fate other than hell for us. So many strange places these thoughts can go.
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CK Member (Idle past 4150 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
That's the other thing that bugs me - what bother giving souls to the damned?
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote: Or maybe all of us. I suspect that God enjoys the look on the faces of the Christians and Muslims as they figure out they're ending up in Hell with the rest of us.
Oh! Was that blasphemous?
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Glordag2 Inactive Member |
quote: Not if you're correct (; .
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CK Member (Idle past 4150 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
quote:
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Glordag2 Inactive Member |
LOL! That was great. What is that from?
quote: I especially liked that one (:
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
Gordag, there are parts of the Bible that indicate the time-line idea is correct.
For example, Paul says we are His body "that fills all in all" in Ephesians, and does so after talking about predestination, working all things after the good pleasure of His will, and that He wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. You have to wonder what he was referring to. Paul was referring to messages and revelations he had already preached, one of them I believe is this one I mention here. He says we, his people, are His body that fills "all in all." Well, all in all is everything in everything, and that has to include history as well. How is that going to be accomplished if most people are burning in hell? His people can only fill hell, if something like what I am saying is true. Spend some time thinking about it. It's a heavy concept, but once you understand it, much of the scriptures in this area, and the seeming contradictions you reference in the OP, clear up. He makes all things new. All things to my mind is "all things" and that has to include history. If he be lifted up, he will draw "all men" to himself. There's more Bible references. It is in there. You just to have to realize what the writer is talking about in many of these passages people tend to gloss over. Keep in mind what I am writing is fully consistent with a predetermined ending for each person, and in this time-line, either heaven or hell, but in the End, who is a Person not just an event, the predetermined position is an elected position in Christ since He fills all in all through His body. Since Paul says His body, the people of God, fill all in all, all souls of people must become part of Christ somehow. This message has been edited by randman, 08-08-2005 12:22 PM
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CK Member (Idle past 4150 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
It's a sketch that Rowan Atkinson (Mr.Bean/Blackadder) used to do.
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