EvC Forum: Exodus Part One: Hebrews/Israelites in Egypt

Hi John,

I believe some of that historical evidence does exist which can atleast suggest their was a people who were called "Israel" during the time period just before the arrival of the Philistines c.1200 bc.

The one example of this would be the Israel Stele of 1207 bc.

This would be the reference that claims that all of Israel was totally wiped out?

I would think that you would struggle to find ANY other evidence that suggests there was a people called Israel in Palestine before 1200 BCE. The M.S. is the first mention of Israel as a people in external evidence.

There used to be two pieces of evidence that was touted for Israel, the four pillared house and the rim collared jar, these were said to be unique to Israel and were supposed to be a new material culture that had entered Palestine. But, both have been abandonned now as these have now been found in areas not associated with Israel.

But I would be interested if you had any evidence other than the Merneptah Stele.

Also, don't you think that, if Bible chronology is correct (c. 1446 BCE), that the Israelites should already be settled in Palestine long before 1207 BCE?

The M.S. states that the Israel that the Egyptians defeated was not a land but a people, it seems strange that they werent already settled, they would certainly have to be if the Conquest narratives were accurate.

You asked a good question: "And how do we know that the ‘Israel’ of the Merneptah Stele is the Israel of the Bible?"
Like most historical identification, you don't now with 100% certainty. But the indicators seem reasonable enough as most scholars do have a general consensus that the Israel mentioned in the stele is plausable evidence of the Israel of the bible.

I agree that the vast majority of scholars do equate the two. However, the stele needs to be taken in context becasue so many if the pro-bible brigade read far too much into it. All that the stele tells us is that there was an unsettled people called Israel living in Palestine around 1207 BCE, it says nothing else, nothign about their religion, or where they came from.

I was impressed with the evidence you gave me which seemed to indicate a c.1000 bc origin for the Joseph story. This might make me reconsider my views of that narrative. [But I still think the bible narrative is a garbled fantasized account of old Hyksos memories of grandeur].

Yes, the Bible probably is.

As for the people mentioned in Genesis etc, it seems that they were just like most folk heroes, such as king Arthur etc. Highly mythologized representations of real people. That's just my assumption though.

I would argue that the Patriarchs are lost to us. Which isnt surprising when you consider that these tales are about a family 'history', and an insignificant one at that.

Now on to the Habiru:
Most of what you gave me was information I already knew of. I believe that the Hebrew ethnicity came from the Habiru/Apiru, who were outcasts from all ancient mid-east society and eventually formed a Robin Hood sort of band of ancient cossack/pirate like semi-nomadic warrior class serfs, who hired themselves out as Mercenaries, workers etc.[thus the slave traditions in egypt combined with memories of the Hyksos capitol at Ramsess(Avaris)].

But the Hebrews were a people, it is an ethnic term, why call them habiru whem they would have been known as Hebrews?

Really, the evidence certainly exists for a possible link of the Habiru with the Hebrew.

I share CA's concerns about this. IMO, for there to be evidence of a possible linbk between Habiru and Hebrew in Egypt you would need to show that there were indeed Hebrews in Egypt in the first place. It seems very strange that there are no references to the Hebrews in Egyptian records or inthe records of other nations. You may be making a link that really isnt there.

Thus,[as I believe] the Hebrew people were a collective bunch of rebel folk who came from far and wide throughout the Near-eastern world to join in groups that plundered, allied, and threatened the fairly weak Egyptian vassal princes of Canaan during the c.1400-1300's bc.

So, where does the Bible stories come from? The Bible stories are nothing like what you are presenting for Israel's origins. You may be making the same mistakes that Albright and the other early bib/archs, i.e. inventing a past for Israel that isnt true.

This diverse group of people had legends and memories of an origin in the east-- accross the Euphrates[Abraham etc.] thus they became known as Hebrews--Eber meaning "across". Some of these groups formed into tribes that united and worshiped a combination of gods, El, Yahweh, etc. and eventually became known as the people of "YisrEl"--Israel. Then came their memories of a time when they lived as kings in Egypt, (Joseph,Jacob) and when they were driven out in an Exodus (Hyksos dynasty and Expulsion).

I suppose anything is possible, but being possible and being true is not the same thing. The thing is, in the academic debate over the origins of ancient Israel, the evidence required for anything to be taken seriously needs to be pretty substantial.

Thank you for listening to my highly imaginative scenario. My extraordinary ideas deserve equally extraordinary evidence as I am aware.

I enjoyed your reply, I have heard these arguments in slightly different forms before, they are all plausible I suppose, but as you say, supporting them with evidence will prove very difficult.

However, having said that, you might find some fundies mailing you because they will be convinced you have proven something, albeit nothing like the Bible version!

Take care.

Brian.

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