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Author Topic:   How do Christians deal with the violence in the Bible?
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 211 of 221 (231097)
08-08-2005 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by ramoss
08-08-2005 4:07 PM


Re: Knowedge of good and evil
Isaiah 1:11-18 writes:
"11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me? saith the L-rd; I am full of the burnt-offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he-goats.
12 When ye come to appear before Me, who hath required this at your hand, to trample My courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; it is an offering of abomination unto Me; new moon and sabbath, the holding of convocations--I cannot endure iniquity along with the solemn assembly.
14 Your new moons and your appointed seasons My soul hateth; they are a burden unto Me; I am weary to bear them.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide Mine eyes from you; yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear; your hands are full of blood.
16 Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from before Mine eyes, cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek justice, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the L-rd; though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. "
Thanks, ramoss. This is the God I believe in, the one I see described in the Bible.
How does this match up with:
Deuteronemy 2:21-22 writes:
2:21 A people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims; but the LORD destroyed them before them; and they succeeded them, and dwelt in their stead
2:22 As he did to the children of Esau, which dwelt in Seir, when he destroyed the Horims from before them; and they succeeded them, and dwelt in their stead even unto this day:
God destroys entire nations.
Deuteronomy 28:32-34 writes:
28:32 Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day long; and there shall be no might in thine hand.
28:33 The fruit of thy land, and all thy labours, shall a nation which thou knowest not eat up; and thou shalt be only oppressed and crushed alway:
28:34 So that thou shalt be mad for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see.
You will all become slaves and be oppressed into madness.
Sammuel 6:19 writes:
And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter.
Thousands killed for even LOOKING at the Ark.
Jeremiah 2:30 writes:
In vain have I smitten your children; they received no correction: your own sword hath devoured your prophets, like a destroying lion.
God kills kids to "teach" their parents, but it didn't work.
And, of course, the biggest mass-murder of all:
Genesis 6:13 writes:
And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
The destruction of nearly every living thing via a worldwide Flood.
There's plenty more.
How is the loving and just God in ramoss' post possibly consistant with the violence in the Bible?

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by ramoss, posted 08-08-2005 4:07 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Rahvin, posted 08-08-2005 5:16 PM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 216 by ramoss, posted 08-08-2005 5:45 PM Rahvin has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1960 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 212 of 221 (231107)
08-08-2005 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by GDR
08-08-2005 10:24 AM


Re: God and violence and justness and us...
I'll just let this one lie if you don't mind GDR. I'm not here to offend and am getting into deeper on a subject I prefer not to. And completely off topic as well. See you around. Iano

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by GDR, posted 08-08-2005 10:24 AM GDR has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1960 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 213 of 221 (231109)
08-08-2005 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Rahvin
08-08-2005 12:11 PM


Re: God and violence and justness and us...
Rahvin, sorry if any offence caused. We are indeed not here to talk about whose Christian and whose not. Folk can indeed have all kinds of conflicting views and be Christian no the less. And that includes my view and your view. If God only picked for who got the picture 100% right then there's be no need for God eh?
See you around
Iano

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Rahvin, posted 08-08-2005 12:11 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Rahvin, posted 08-08-2005 4:51 PM iano has not replied
 Message 220 by GDR, posted 08-08-2005 6:53 PM iano has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 214 of 221 (231111)
08-08-2005 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by iano
08-08-2005 4:43 PM


Re: God and violence and justness and us...
Rahvin, sorry if any offence caused. We are indeed not here to talk about whose Christian and whose not. Folk can indeed have all kinds of conflicting views and be Christian no the less. And that includes my view and your view. If God only picked for who got the picture 100% right then there's be no need for God eh?
Apology accepted, and I wholeheartedly agree. Thanks for debating with me, and I look foreward to doing so again with you.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by iano, posted 08-08-2005 4:43 PM iano has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 215 of 221 (231115)
08-08-2005 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Rahvin
08-08-2005 4:26 PM


Re: Knowedge of good and evil
More examples of a good and loving God that doesn't seem to condone violence.
Matthew 5:38-39 writes:
5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Matthew 5:43-45 writes:
5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Rahvin, posted 08-08-2005 4:26 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 631 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 216 of 221 (231125)
08-08-2005 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Rahvin
08-08-2005 4:26 PM


Re: Knowedge of good and evil
Well, good question.
The Jewish way of looking at the Tankah is that it is the story of man's search for god, with all of man's faults and all. One interpretation is that the understanding of God changed.. not that god changed.
As the ancient Hebrew culture matured, their understanding of who god is, and what god wanted of them matured.
That seems much more reasonsable than thinking of a god that is cruel.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Rahvin, posted 08-08-2005 4:26 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Rahvin, posted 08-08-2005 6:02 PM ramoss has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 217 of 221 (231135)
08-08-2005 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by ramoss
08-08-2005 5:45 PM


Re: Knowedge of good and evil
The Jewish way of looking at the Tankah is that it is the story of man's search for god, with all of man's faults and all. One interpretation is that the understanding of God changed.. not that god changed.
As the ancient Hebrew culture matured, their understanding of who god is, and what god wanted of them matured.
That seems much more reasonsable than thinking of a god that is cruel.
That's my position, except the part about "what God wanted of them matured." I don't think God changes, or that His standards of good and evil change.
I simply think that the people of the time, with their primitive understanding of God, attributed things to Him that He had nothing to do with. God wasn't cruel, becuase He never did those things. People did the murders, natural disasters destroyed cities, but none of it was divine intervention or mandate. People do horrible things in His name all the time, and I just don't think it was any different back then.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by ramoss, posted 08-08-2005 5:45 PM ramoss has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by jar, posted 08-08-2005 6:27 PM Rahvin has replied
 Message 221 by iano, posted 08-09-2005 4:30 AM Rahvin has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 413 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 218 of 221 (231140)
08-08-2005 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Rahvin
08-08-2005 6:02 PM


Re: Knowedge of good and evil
He's not saying God matured but that their understanding of what God wanted had matured.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Rahvin, posted 08-08-2005 6:02 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Rahvin, posted 08-08-2005 6:33 PM jar has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 219 of 221 (231144)
08-08-2005 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by jar
08-08-2005 6:27 PM


Re: Knowedge of good and evil
He's not saying God matured but that their understanding of what God wanted had matured.
You're right. I misread. Sorry.

Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by jar, posted 08-08-2005 6:27 PM jar has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 220 of 221 (231151)
08-08-2005 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by iano
08-08-2005 4:43 PM


Re: God and violence and justness and us...
iano writes:
Rahvin, sorry if any offence caused. We are indeed not here to talk about whose Christian and whose not. Folk can indeed have all kinds of conflicting views and be Christian no the less. And that includes my view and your view. If God only picked for who got the picture 100% right then there's be no need for God eh?
Nice post iano. We have a great deal more in common than we have differences.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by iano, posted 08-08-2005 4:43 PM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1960 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 221 of 221 (231225)
08-09-2005 4:30 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Rahvin
08-08-2005 6:02 PM


Re: Knowedge of good and evil
Rahvin writes:
That's my position, except the part about "what God wanted of them matured." I don't think God changes, or that His standards of good and evil change.
I agree God doesn't change but he may have ways of doing things which indicate apparent about turning yet because he defines the rules of the game he is not contradicting himself. Take incest for example. Incest I imagine, would be against his will. But if Adam and Eve were the first man and woman and all others derive from them (allowing sinful nature to be transimitted down Adams line) then somewhere or other 'incest' was necessary to propagate the species. Did God turn a blind eye because he had to propagate the species or was incest only incest when he gave a law defining it as such (ie: after a sufficient population has been generated to make 'incest' unnecessary). If so, can God not kill many because he says it's right and good but not allow us that same latitude - cos we're not God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Rahvin, posted 08-08-2005 6:02 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
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