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Author Topic:   Why is this important?
TheDanish
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 16 (23187)
11-19-2002 4:02 AM


To anyone at all who's here and debating: why are you here, if you would normally have better things to do than to squabble over things that you know are already right -- or at least know that the other party is wrong? If you already know that [theory/myth] is wrong, and you know you aren't going to convince any ignorant person of anything, then what do you hope to gain by repeating the same things ad nausium? Could you be doing something more productive, like, say, research?
I'm here because I'm interested in the topic, not because I have some agenda to push.
- Dane

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Quetzal, posted 11-19-2002 4:22 AM TheDanish has not replied
 Message 3 by Mammuthus, posted 11-19-2002 4:25 AM TheDanish has replied
 Message 4 by John, posted 11-19-2002 10:01 AM TheDanish has not replied
 Message 6 by Primordial Egg, posted 11-19-2002 10:36 AM TheDanish has replied
 Message 13 by Andya Primanda, posted 11-20-2002 11:33 PM TheDanish has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 2 of 16 (23191)
11-19-2002 4:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by TheDanish
11-19-2002 4:02 AM


I don't have any agenda to push either (except, perhaps, in a negative sense). I enjoy the discussions, but even more I enjoy the responses the scientist side gives - if you read through through all of the threads on this board, you'll end up with a complete graduate-level education in some areas. For that alone it's worth spending time here. Besides, I get paid whether I work or not - so why work?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by TheDanish, posted 11-19-2002 4:02 AM TheDanish has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6474 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 3 of 16 (23192)
11-19-2002 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by TheDanish
11-19-2002 4:02 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by TheDanish:
To anyone at all who's here and debating: why are you here, if you would normally have better things to do than to squabble over things that you know are already right -- or at least know that the other party is wrong? If you already know that [theory/myth] is wrong, and you know you aren't going to convince any ignorant person of anything, then what do you hope to gain by repeating the same things ad nausium? Could you be doing something more productive, like, say, research?
I'm here because I'm interested in the topic, not because I have some agenda to push.
- Dane
Hi D
You seem to assume that the rest of us are here to push an agenda rather than simply being interested. With a few exceptions, I doubt anyone here has the illusion that they will change a creationists perception of what science is or a scientist to a biblical/koranic/etc. literalist. I for one get into the debates because I am curious as to how people can support (in their own minds creationism) or live life with a worldview based on a literal interpretation of the bible while trying to reconcile it with science...and it is always interesting to see how varied the worldviews among creationists are....I also get to hear what scientists in other disciplines have to say...and I at least find the time both to post and do my research
cheers,
M

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by TheDanish, posted 11-19-2002 4:02 AM TheDanish has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by TheDanish, posted 11-19-2002 5:59 PM Mammuthus has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 16 (23219)
11-19-2002 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by TheDanish
11-19-2002 4:02 AM


quote:
Originally posted by TheDanish:
why are you here (?)
... for the knowledge gained. Why else do anything?
------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by TheDanish, posted 11-19-2002 4:02 AM TheDanish has not replied

  
David unfamous
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 16 (23223)
11-19-2002 10:12 AM


Yep... to learn through discussion.

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 16 (23227)
11-19-2002 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by TheDanish
11-19-2002 4:02 AM


quote:
Originally posted by TheDanish:
To anyone at all who's here and debating: why are you here, if you would normally have better things to do than to squabble over things that you know are already right -- or at least know that the other party is wrong? If you already know that [theory/myth] is wrong, and you know you aren't going to convince any ignorant person of anything, then what do you hope to gain by repeating the same things ad nausium? Could you be doing something more productive, like, say, research?
I'm here because I'm interested in the topic, not because I have some agenda to push.
- Dane

Personally, I would have stayed away from this whole evolution vs creation debate as its, well, a bit silly really. I mean, fancy trying to maintain that the Earth is 6000 years old and do so with a straight face - I'd put them in the same category as flat earthers.
But when creation "science" started getting the same airtime as evolution in schools in the US (and possibly soon in the UK), it hit home to me that those of us with a scientific background were not doing enough to publicise ourselves and foster confidence in our methods. This has allowed the dark thief of irrationality to creep in unawares, and more and more people are believing this crap.
On several occasions, quite intelligent (but uninformed non-scientists) people have told me "well, evolution's been disproved hasn't it?" based on something they may have read in the media (incidentally they can never tell me how evolution's been disproved - it was always something they heard.
I'm not sure if that means I have an agenda or not, I'm here to genuinely learn from all the experts who post on this board, get acquainted with the arguments and try to understand the creation point of view.
PE
------------------
It's good to have an open mind, but not so open that your brains
fall out. - Bertrand Russell
[This message has been edited by Primordial Egg, 11-19-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by TheDanish, posted 11-19-2002 4:02 AM TheDanish has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by TheDanish, posted 11-20-2002 4:40 AM Primordial Egg has replied

  
TheDanish
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 16 (23289)
11-19-2002 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Mammuthus
11-19-2002 4:25 AM


Sorry. I didn't mean to imply that anyone was pushing an agenda. Now that I think about it, I shouldn't have included that. Well, I know it's useless to debate the topic, but you're all (mostly) here for the same reason I am, more or less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Mammuthus, posted 11-19-2002 4:25 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Mammuthus, posted 11-20-2002 4:01 AM TheDanish has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6474 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 8 of 16 (23330)
11-20-2002 4:01 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by TheDanish
11-19-2002 5:59 PM


quote:
Originally posted by TheDanish:
Sorry. I didn't mean to imply that anyone was pushing an agenda. Now that I think about it, I shouldn't have included that. Well, I know it's useless to debate the topic, but you're all (mostly) here for the same reason I am, more or less.
********
No problem. There are actually people posting on the forums who have declared a specific agenda so I think the inclusion of possible agendas in your question is valid.
Having thought about it a bit more I would say I am also drawn here for similar reasons as Primordial Egg. It is astounding what kinds of misconceptions about science exist...
cheers,
M

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by TheDanish, posted 11-19-2002 5:59 PM TheDanish has not replied

  
TheDanish
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 16 (23336)
11-20-2002 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Primordial Egg
11-19-2002 10:36 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Primordial Egg:
[snip]
But when creation "science" started getting the same airtime as evolution in schools in the US (and possibly soon in the UK), it hit home to me that those of us with a scientific background were not doing enough to publicise ourselves and foster confidence in our methods. This has allowed the dark thief of irrationality to creep in unawares, and more and more people are believing this crap.
[snip]

I believe that that, if anything, is the core of the issue. People that don't understand what science is (school boards, voters) are making decisions about science, and those that do have an agenda to push will rely on those ignorances. Unfortunately, in the US, we have voting, where people, often ignorant of the situation, get to vote.
If creationists want to teach creation as science, the burden of evidence lies on them, and they should take all of it into consideration, such as dodos on the Mauritius island. I could go into a huge spiel about all that, which I almost did save for me trimming my post a bit, but it's been rehashed by minds greater than mine more times than I can count (which was part of the reason I posted this topic in the first place), so I think I'll wrap it up now for the sake of being somewhat concise.
P.S. I finished my paper (it wasn't that big of a project; 3-5 pages) that I talked about in said thread, but since nobody answered, I had to go on intuition. Oh, well.
[This message has been edited by TheDanish, 11-20-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Primordial Egg, posted 11-19-2002 10:36 AM Primordial Egg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Primordial Egg, posted 11-20-2002 11:49 AM TheDanish has not replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 16 (23381)
11-20-2002 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by TheDanish
11-20-2002 4:40 AM


quote:
People that don't understand what science is (school boards, voters) are making decisions about science, and those that do have an agenda to push will rely on those ignorances. Unfortunately, in the US, we have voting, where people, often ignorant of the situation, get to vote.
As I alluded to earlier, I think this is a problem caused by the scientific establishment's indifference. Why should people trust scientists when the only image they have of them in the media is of geeky men in white coats who put shampoo in the eyes of monkeys? (OK - slight exaggeration). So in the end Luddism, ignorance gets considered a virtue.
(gets off soapbox)
PE
------------------
It's good to have an open mind, but not so open that your brains
fall out. - Bertrand Russell

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by TheDanish, posted 11-20-2002 4:40 AM TheDanish has not replied

  
monkenstick
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 16 (23421)
11-20-2002 7:49 PM


I don't really think these debates have too much impact really, the thing which does matter to me is that pseudoscience never gets into the classroom - borger can proclaim all he wants on an internet bb that evolution is dead but it won't make the slightest bit of difference to science

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 12 of 16 (23430)
11-20-2002 10:10 PM


I'm here, really, because I like to learn and I like to argue. But as a couple of people have said, I'm ready to fight to keep science in, and religion out, of public-school science classrooms. Here I live in a country that likes to kid itself that it leads the world in one thing and another, and 51% of our population doesn't know that the Earth orbits the Sun in a year. So let's tell our kids that the Sun was formed four days after the Earth......
I don't want that.

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 16 (23448)
11-20-2002 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by TheDanish
11-19-2002 4:02 AM


Why am I here? First, this.
http://www.harunyahya.com
I am a Muslim, and I stand in the way of Christian fundamnetalist creationism disguised as Muslims. As yet I am here to look for data, references, and kick-ass arguments against creationists of whatever version. Maybe Christian creationists are losing the local market so they dump their commodity abroad...on my unsuspecting brothers and sisters.
Second, I am a biologist, and who knows if somehow I can establish good relations with other biologists/EvC enthusiasts here?
Third, maybe for the thrill of the fight?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by TheDanish, posted 11-19-2002 4:02 AM TheDanish has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by robinrohan, posted 11-21-2002 4:29 PM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 16 (23530)
11-21-2002 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Andya Primanda
11-20-2002 11:33 PM


I'm not much of an activist but I do think Creationism is dangerous. I tried to argue with them. They are not be argued with. If you mention some scientific method (say, carbon dating), they always say it's been proven to be false. Fossils? They laugh with scorn. The fact that you can not argue with them--or many of them--is what makes Creationists dangerous.
However, my real purpose is to learn something in an enjoyable way, and I have done that in the short time I've paid attention to this forum.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Andya Primanda, posted 11-20-2002 11:33 PM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
hydrvs
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 16 (24300)
11-25-2002 7:17 PM


I am here to learn as much as it is possible from both sides. Whenever you know how the other party thinks, you are going to have a greater chance to promote your point.

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by DinoTedo, posted 11-25-2002 9:05 PM hydrvs has not replied

  
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