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Author Topic:   what is the big bang and how do i understand it?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 122 (230316)
08-05-2005 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by cavediver
08-05-2005 7:51 AM


tall stack of earths
At the equator, they are at a max distance from each other, and then they collapse back together towards the big crunch at the south pole.
How does the expansion stop and the contraction begin? Why, instead of a sphere, wouldn't the model be a cone/hemisphere?
Also, as we reached the equator the expansion rate would slow, so is there anyway for us to estimate which latitude we are at? Perhaps compare the expansion rate over a large enough time scale to determine what point of the globe we are at. Since the expansion rate is still increasing, we’d have to be north of 45 degrees latitude.
What happens before the big bang?
It seems that after the big crunch there would be another big bang. I think the singularity existed for a split second after contraction and immediately began expanding again, it just happens over and over again forever. With this view, you can ask what happened before the big bang. In your earth model, north of north pole would be the south pole of another earth sitting on top of it, and another earth would be south of the south pole too, a whole stack of them, a tall one.
Or am I completely wrong?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by cavediver, posted 08-05-2005 7:51 AM cavediver has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by DominionSeraph, posted 08-07-2005 7:24 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 122 (232434)
08-11-2005 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by DominionSeraph
08-07-2005 7:24 PM


Re: tall stack of earths
Gravity would do that if the universe was dense enough.
But the density is decreasing with the expansion, so graity would have less and less of an affect.
Different models are used.
duh...I was asking why that model was a sphere.
However, as the rate of expansion is increasing, the 3D representation would be more of a horn shape.
ahhhh, horn shape...thats what I was getting at with the cone/hemisphere description.
Within time, once you get to the North Pole, all directions are 'later'/'after'. 'Up' is a direction in imaginary time.
But at time=0, you exist on both earths simultaneously, the south pole of the upper earth is the same point as the north pole of the other, so you could go north, not up, but just on a different sphere.
Basically, we're saying the Big Crunch and the spherical space-time model don't work with the increasingly expanding universe we observe from the red-shifts.
So, why did cavediver bring it up in the first place?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by DominionSeraph, posted 08-07-2005 7:24 PM DominionSeraph has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Son Goku, posted 08-11-2005 7:55 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 17 by cavediver, posted 08-12-2005 3:38 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 122 (232438)
08-11-2005 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Son Goku
08-11-2005 7:55 PM


Re: tall stack of earths
But he also brought up the Big Crunch. I don't see how the Big Crunch is possible with the horn-shape model. Conversly, if we do consider the Big Crunch, then before the Big Bang is possible.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by cavediver, posted 08-12-2005 3:42 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 122 (233524)
08-15-2005 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by cavediver
08-12-2005 3:38 AM


Re: tall stack of earths
A couple questions right off the bat:
Is the universe finite or infinite?
Does the rate of expansion increase with distance?
I don't think the Big Crunch can be possible with an increasingly expanding universe, nor with a horn shaped model.
My tall stack of earths model depends on the possibility of the Big Crunch.
But the density is decreasing with the expansion, so gravity would have less and less of an affect.
Exacty the same as when you throw a ball into the air... "gravity" decreases as height is gained, but it doesn't necessarily allow the the ball to escape to infinity.
But the ball is slowing down as height is gained. If the expansion of the universe is increasing, then gravity wouldn't be able to "turn-it-around", like earthly gravity does to the ball. If it is the same as the ball, then the universe couldn't be increasingly expanding.
This is not an output of the model, but just conjecture.
yeah, do you mind? Sorry if you think your wasting your time. I appreciate the replies, though.
It also doesn't make a huge amount of sense given the nature of the singularity.
I don't know much about the nature of the singularity.
It is possible that quantum gravity could describe what you are imagining, but now there would be no south/north pole, but a thin "neck" connecting each "sphere"
When you say neck, it seems like it'd be more than one point. Why couldn't it be one point?, where the northernmost point of one sphere and the sothernmost point of the other are the same point, singularity. I realize that the closer you get to singularity the more flat the model becomes, and the harder it would be for this point to exist on both spheres, but I don't see that it can't be done.
This message has been edited by Catholic Scientist, 08-15-2005 06:51 PM

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 Message 17 by cavediver, posted 08-12-2005 3:38 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by cavediver, posted 08-15-2005 8:38 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 40 by SoulSlay, posted 08-21-2005 2:23 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 122 (233525)
08-15-2005 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by cavediver
08-12-2005 3:42 AM


after the big crunch
Conversly, if we do consider the Big Crunch, then before the Big Bang is possible.
Why? This does not follow...
Because, if the Big Crunch can happen, then there can be another Big Bang after it, and we would be existing before that big bang. The people after that big bang might say that nothing could exist before it, but what about us? What about the people that existed before the last big bang that we are talking about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by cavediver, posted 08-12-2005 3:42 AM cavediver has replied

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 122 (234609)
08-18-2005 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by cavediver
08-15-2005 8:38 PM


Re: tall stack of earths
Is the universe finite or infinite?
Yes (I don't know is the less obtuse answer)
What's your opinion, if you had to pick one? Which one do you like more?
however, if the acceleration is dynamic, it might reduce or switch off, in which case we could still have a (delayed) collapse.
understood.
Your picture of the globes on top of each other is a (good) analogy of the oscillating universe conjecture, but it is no longer an accurate representation of any of the mathematics, and actually can create confusion as to the nature of time.
Well, if I'm wrong then I'm wrong (Does that mean we can't still explore the idea?). Got any suggestions for a book I should read? I've got the math from getting a B.S. in engineering so it might need to be dumbed down a little, but I would be looking for a book that isn't too simplified.
Why should there only be one globe touching our original globe at the pole?
Because it represents the UNIverse, of which there is only one. The other globe is the same universe, just earlier in time.
Why couldn't several globes touch here? The "neck" concept saves this problem.
Then we would be in one of many uni(multi)verses. How does the neck concept save the problem? Just because of the overlap of multiple spheres touching at one point?

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 Message 26 by cavediver, posted 08-15-2005 8:38 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Son Goku, posted 08-18-2005 6:32 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 122 (234662)
08-18-2005 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Son Goku
08-18-2005 6:32 PM


Re: tall stack of earths
The other sphere wouldn't be our universe at an earlier time.
It would be all the same matter. Or does matter stop existing at singularity too?
What you would have is two universes which both become undefined near a singular point.
Thats kinda why I think the singularity would have existed for an infinatlely small amount time, I know i know time ceases to exist, but because its undefined makes me think it didn't really exist as singularity, literally(in reality).
Is this question answerable:
How long was the universe at singualrity before it began to expand?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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