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Bones of Contentions.

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Author Topic:   Bones of Contentions.
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 39 of 240 (226615)
07-26-2005 11:12 PM 		Reply to: Message 38 by John Ponce
07-26-2005 10:49 PM

Re: Brain Size...
What the hell does intellegence have to do with evolution?
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Do you have even a clue what evolution is or the Theory of Evolution says?
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by John Ponce, posted 07-26-2005 10:49 PM John Ponce has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by John Ponce, posted 07-27-2005 12:18 AM jar has replied
  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 47 of 240 (226684)
07-27-2005 7:50 AM 		Reply to: Message 44 by John Ponce
07-27-2005 12:18 AM

Re: Brain Size...
I believe that intellegence was certainly one of the factors in the survival of the critters that became hSs. I believe that one of the indicators that can be used to distinguish between homo sapiens and earlier primates in the line is relative brain size.
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But...
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I don't believe that intellegence or brain size has anything to do with either the TOE or evolution. Lot's of critters have evolved and done just fine with no brain at all.
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by John Ponce, posted 07-27-2005 12:18 AM John Ponce has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by John Ponce, posted 07-28-2005 1:12 AM jar has replied
  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 53 of 240 (226984)
07-28-2005 8:56 AM 		Reply to: Message 52 by John Ponce
07-28-2005 1:12 AM

Re: Brain Size...
I don't think you will find any place in my post where I equate intellegence with relative brain size. Sorry but you'll have to point that out. I did say that relative brain size is one method that can be used to distinguish species in the human ancestral lineage.
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Frankly, I would imagine that the first person who learned to chip flint to make a cutting edge was likely as intellegent as the average person today. Certainly the person who first made bread was a genius.
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While intellegence, adaptability has been a hallmark in the evolution of man, it is not necessary to Evolution. Virus evolve. Are they intellegent?
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Thus, intellegence is not a factor in evolution. Survival is. Evolution is history, it's the story of what worked.
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by John Ponce, posted 07-28-2005 1:12 AM John Ponce has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by John Ponce, posted 07-28-2005 11:20 PM jar has replied
  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 56 of 240 (227215)
07-28-2005 11:46 PM 		Reply to: Message 55 by John Ponce
07-28-2005 11:20 PM

Re: Brain Size...
Evolution is a history. It's simply a summary of what happened.
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I don't know of anything that suggests that modern humans are more intellegent than earlier primates. Why would that even be a factor?
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Natural selection supposedly propagates those billions (trillions) of allegedly beneficial random mutations that enhance survival and reproductive benefits to eventually produce human beings.
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Nope. Not really the way it happened.
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You seem to say you do not equate intelligence with brain size - so what is the benefit that supposedly retained the mutated brains in the hominid critter gene pool? Was increased brain size simply a neutral mutation and didn’t add any intelligence? Why do you suppose larger brains would be a selected trait — increased ability to deliver lethal head butts on enemies?
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I don't have a clue what you're talking about there. Try again using other words and maybe I'll see what you're asking.
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I humbly suggest you appear to be attempting to ignore the obvious and evade the questions that present particular problems for your beliefs. Maybe I’m reading you wrongly.
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Could be because I don't have a clue what you're talking about either.
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That would be how many million years ago Jar? Why would you imagine that? Is their any evidence? The evidence I’m aware of suggests intelligence on par with us first appeared coincident with the oldest recorded history on Earth - only 5000 years ago (give or take). Wouldn’t you think that evidence at least a little bit odd if reasonably intellignet folks like us have really been bumming around for millions of years?
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Well, what do you mean by recorded history. The Venus of Willendorf dates to around 20,000 BCE or even earlier. Stone tools dating to 10-12,000 years ago have been found in the Americas.
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Why would I think the creator of the Venus of Willendorf was any less intellegent than anyone today?
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by John Ponce, posted 07-28-2005 11:20 PM John Ponce has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by John Ponce, posted 07-29-2005 12:08 AM jar has replied
  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 64 of 240 (227299)
07-29-2005 10:29 AM 		Reply to: Message 58 by John Ponce
07-29-2005 12:08 AM

Re: Brain Size...
Well,let me try to explain my position in another way. Perhaps it will become clearer.
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I said that I don't believe intellegence is a necessary component of Evolution. The reason I believe that is true is that there are myriads of very successful critters that have evolved with little or no intellegence.
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In relation to humans, I see no evidence that todays humans are nay more intellegent than those from considerably distant in the past.
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But before going much further, I think we need to come up with some working definition of intellegence. For the purposes of this thread, would you agree that we are talking about that capability that can be used to imagine new solutions to problems?
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by John Ponce, posted 07-29-2005 12:08 AM John Ponce has not replied
  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 67 of 240 (227535)
07-29-2005 5:22 PM 		Reply to: Message 66 by deerbreh
07-29-2005 12:08 PM

In defence of cockroaches
In defence of cockroaches, there was the cockroach who had been to hell.
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by deerbreh, posted 07-29-2005 12:08 PM deerbreh has not replied
  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 89 of 240 (228428)
08-01-2005 11:29 AM 		Reply to: Message 83 by jcrawford
08-01-2005 5:12 AM

What are racist statements?
Is it racist to distinguish between homo Sapiens and frogs?
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by jcrawford, posted 08-01-2005 5:12 AM jcrawford has not replied
  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 98 of 240 (228618)
08-01-2005 9:55 PM 		Reply to: Message 97 by RAZD
08-01-2005 9:31 PM

Re: the point?
(1) Creationist Marvin Lubenow is not a "professor" properly speaking, unless he has a doctorate degree in the field he is (supposedly) teaching or "professing" and claiming otherwise is snake-oil selling.
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What? Say it isn't so?
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Biography for Professor Lubenow
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by RAZD, posted 08-01-2005 9:31 PM RAZD has not replied
  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 108 of 240 (229013)
08-03-2005 12:20 AM 		Reply to: Message 106 by John Ponce
08-03-2005 12:17 AM

What are you talking about?
What common theory?
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by John Ponce, posted 08-03-2005 12:17 AM John Ponce has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by John Ponce, posted 08-03-2005 1:32 AM jar has replied
  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 120 of 240 (229101)
08-03-2005 9:21 AM 		Reply to: Message 112 by John Ponce
08-03-2005 1:32 AM

Re: What are you talking about?
I believe there is near unanimous agreement that this relationship was at least partly responsible for the supposed evoluition from critter to man via incremental beneficial brain mutations.
No?
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No. Where have you shown that is a common theory.
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I tried many pages ago to engage you in a discussion of just this issue.
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Perhaps this time you won't simply run away and we can move through this in a reasonable manner.
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First, would you agree that there are no indications that intellegence is required as a condition of evolution?
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Are plants intelegent?
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Are viruses intellegent?
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Are bacteria intelegent?
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by John Ponce, posted 08-03-2005 1:32 AM John Ponce has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by John Ponce, posted 08-04-2005 12:08 AM jar has replied
  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 137 of 240 (229664)
08-04-2005 10:35 AM 		Reply to: Message 123 by John Ponce
08-04-2005 12:08 AM

Re: What are you talking about?
John, you are a hard person to discuss anything with. I agree you're ignoring me.
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Please understand I'm old and slow and so need to deal with things one small step at a time. Humor me please.
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You asked:
I believe there is near unanimous agreement that this relationship (brain size relation to intelligence) was at least partly responsible for the supposed evoluition from critter to man via incremental beneficial brain mutations.
No?
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That is a direct question.
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I responded:
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No. Where have you shown that is a common theory.
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That is an answer and a request for you to provide supporting material.
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I then asked a few follow up questions that I believe are needed before we can move further.
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First, would you agree that there are no indications that intellegence is required as a condition of evolution?
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Are plants intelegent?
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Are viruses intellegent?
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Are bacteria intelegent?
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If you will support your assertions and answer my questions whe can then try to move forward towards resolution of your issue regarding intellegence and brain size.
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by John Ponce, posted 08-04-2005 12:08 AM John Ponce has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by John Ponce, posted 08-04-2005 10:48 PM jar has replied
 Message 164 by jcrawford, posted 08-06-2005 10:10 PM jar has replied
  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 142 of 240 (229958)
08-04-2005 10:56 PM 		Reply to: Message 141 by John Ponce
08-04-2005 10:48 PM

Re: What are you talking about?
John.
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Enjoy your stay here.
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by John Ponce, posted 08-04-2005 10:48 PM John Ponce has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by John Ponce, posted 08-05-2005 12:18 AM jar has not replied
 Message 169 by jcrawford, posted 08-06-2005 10:43 PM jar has not replied
  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 167 of 240 (230611)
08-06-2005 10:16 PM 		Reply to: Message 164 by jcrawford
08-06-2005 10:10 PM

Re: What are you talking about?
What in the world are you talking about?
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by jcrawford, posted 08-06-2005 10:10 PM jcrawford has not replied
  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 215 of 240 (233000)
08-13-2005 2:03 PM 		Reply to: Message 214 by RAZD
08-13-2005 1:51 PM

Re: More invalid conclusions & unsubstantiated assertions in place of any real argume
John Ponce writes:
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If only RAZD was available, he could have admonished Einstein for his "willful ignorance".
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You weren't there but Bohr was and responded for you. LOL
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by RAZD, posted 08-13-2005 1:51 PM RAZD has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by RAZD, posted 08-13-2005 2:27 PM jar has not replied
  
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