Book of Job -- Little help here

no, the BOOK holds a contradictory stance. the book is about bad things happening to good people. if job is not completely sinless then he deserves it. end of book. the point is that he does NOT deserve it. i doubt the hebrews believed in this modern absolute sense. they don't seem to have believed in original sin either (same logic -- if job is tainted by original sin, he deserves it). i think the jewish god is much more understanding than the christian god, ironically.

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אָרַח

First of all, I am sorry you lost your dad when you were young. I lost mine too when I was 17 but I don't go looking for reasons because I don't think we can know the mind of God and I don't think God works that way. I also don't see any useful purpose in speculation about who might or might not be "burning in hell". And I am pretty convinced it has little or nothing to do with "walking down the aisle." I tend to think that hell is mostly here on earth anyway in the form of alienation from God and your fellow humans. We are called to "love God with all our mind, heart, soul and strength" and to "love our neighbor as ourselves". That is enough for me and it has nothing to do with "walking down the aisle" and everything to do with how I treat my neighbor (and thus love God, because they are one and the same).

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i think the jewish god is much more understanding than the christian god, ironically.

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What do you expect? The Book of Job starts out with God and Satan getting into a pissing match. Hey, Yahweh turns out to be a pretty regular bloke, eh? Not all that different from you and me, really.

No, they are not psycholically different. It was a different spiritual battle. Let me explain.When Adam and Eve fell, God made a promise to Satan: Ahhhh, now all Satan has to do is kill Eve's offspring. If he can do that, he can stop his head from being crushed (think terminator). Not long after, the first murder takes place. Cain kills Abel. Well he got 1 out of 3 and that ain't bad. Down through Genesis, we see God telling Abraham that he will be the father of a great nation and will produce the messiah.Oky doky, now all Satan has to do is wipe out Abraham's family, which of course grew into the Jews. The entire battle of the old testament was Satan's attempt to completely wipe the Jews off of the face of the earth. It was a bloody battle on both sides. The genocide of the Jews was first tried in Egpyt, and continues on TO THIS DAY. Hello. That right there should clue anyone who is paying attention that God is real.Anywho, once Jesus came Satan knew he had to kill him before he could assend to the throne. And so Jesus died, but rose again. Now after the resurection, Satans tactics have turned from eradicating the Jews (although that remains up there on the list of things to do, evidence Nazis and all of Isreal's neighbors). Now Satan has to fight the church, and the church is armed with the Holy Spirit. It is no longer a battle to kill off a bloodline, it is a battle over the souls (mind, will, emotions) of men.

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'Now isn't it amazing. I tell you that nobody made a simple toy like that (solar system model) and you don't believe me. Yet you gaze out into the solar System - the intricate marvelous machine that is around you - and you dare say to me that no one made that. I don't believe it'. -Sir Isaac Newton

That's for you to decide, but I've talked to 2 people who have been to hell and back (Near Death Experience)One of them, ironically enough, believes hell is there, knows it is real, but still doesn't believe in God.I personally believe in Hell (there are actually 2) in a literal sense. There is the one you go to now to hang out if die without salvation, and then there is the lake of fire at the end of time.

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'Now isn't it amazing. I tell you that nobody made a simple toy like that (solar system model) and you don't believe me. Yet you gaze out into the solar System - the intricate marvelous machine that is around you - and you dare say to me that no one made that. I don't believe it'. -Sir Isaac Newton

but, It's not what you do, its who you put your trust in.

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'Now isn't it amazing. I tell you that nobody made a simple toy like that (solar system model) and you don't believe me. Yet you gaze out into the solar System - the intricate marvelous machine that is around you - and you dare say to me that no one made that. I don't believe it'. -Sir Isaac Newton

You are not saved BECAUSE of your works. You love your neighbor BECAUSE you love God and your neighbor is God's creation. Not only that, "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, etc." and "By their WORKS ye shall know them." And also, "if ye have done it unto the least of these ye have done it unto me." If you don't love your neighbor than you don't love God. So yes, saved by grace but it either shows or does not show.Finally, good works can build treasure in heaven and thus lead us to God.Mark 10:21Jesus looking at him loved him, and said to him, "One thing you lack. Go, sell whatever you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me, taking up the cross."

One interpretation of the Job story is that it was original meant as a parody. I havent read the book but have read a couple reviews. I think it is an interesting take on the issue.
"Zuckerman argues that the book of Job was intended as a parody protesting the stereotype of the traditional righteous sufferer as patient and silent."
Job the Silent
A Study in Historical Counterpoint
Bruce Zuckerman

it does say we were made in his image.

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אָרַח

let's go through this line by line, shall we?

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So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock

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is satan livestock?

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and all the wild animals!

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is satan a wild animal?

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You will crawl on your belly

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does satan crawl on his belly?

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and you will eat dust

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does satan eat dust? chapter and verse on that last part? since in this completely unfounded interpretation of genesis 3's etiology as prophecy the crushing-of-the-head bit takes place with the messiah conquering death (ie: christ on the cross) it stands to reason that the battle's already been lost, hasn't it?why should it continue? if so, then why has satan's traditional role in judaism ALWAYS been to test the hearts and souls of men?(as we see in job?)

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אָרַח

look up some info on those nde's tal. i think you'll find that they're rather routine for test pilots in g-force simulators. deprive the brain of oxygen, get an nde.

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אָרַח

interesting.

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אָרַח

Doesn't fly with me (I love puns). I know test pilots that have gone through G-lock, and its nothing like what is described to me by the people that experienced NDEs.But, as always, everything is up to how you interpret it. Either Patch went to hell and back or his brain produced funny images because it was still active at a very low level when the rest of his cardiopulminary system had been shut down for x minutes.

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'Now isn't it amazing. I tell you that nobody made a simple toy like that (solar system model) and you don't believe me. Yet you gaze out into the solar System - the intricate marvelous machine that is around you - and you dare say to me that no one made that. I don't believe it'. -Sir Isaac Newton

Well, I'm not going to argue with you on whether or not you think Satan was the serpent or not. That was my point on what the difference was between the violence of the OT compared to the NT. Satan still wishes Isreal destroyed because it is still God's chosen nation. Interestingly enough, Isreal is the only people on earth who have been disbanded as a country, yet survived as a people for more than 2,000 years. Biblical accuracy of that prophecy aside, just the fact that Isreal exists is a testimony to God's hand on that people.

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'Now isn't it amazing. I tell you that nobody made a simple toy like that (solar system model) and you don't believe me. Yet you gaze out into the solar System - the intricate marvelous machine that is around you - and you dare say to me that no one made that. I don't believe it'. -Sir Isaac Newton

I think it's downright rude for you to start talking about

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biblical accuracy of that prophecy

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when you have started a thread about that very subject which you then ran away from because the questions were too hard and your reading was exposed as being quote-mining and Cut'n'paste.This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 16-Aug-2005 09:38 AM