Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 87 (8945 total)
430 online now:
AZPaul3, DrJones*, Faith, PaulK, ringo, Tangle, Thugpreacha (AdminPhat) (7 members, 423 visitors)
Newest Member: ski zawaski
Happy Birthday: ONESOlivia, perfect
Post Volume: Total: 865,651 Year: 20,687/19,786 Month: 1,084/2,023 Week: 35/557 Day: 35/101 Hour: 6/4


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Book of Job -- Little help here
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 294 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 16 of 61 (233463)
08-15-2005 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by randman
08-15-2005 12:58 PM


Re: explanation
I don't want to waste time. The comment "without sin" is in a specific context. No one is absolutely sinless. You even admit that is the case "compared to God" so you hold a contradictory stance here.

no, the BOOK holds a contradictory stance.

You can try to blur the complexities if you want with simplistic reasoning, but it makes sense only if Job is not absolutely sinless, compared to God, not the other way around.

the book is about bad things happening to good people. if job is not completely sinless then he deserves it. end of book. the point is that he does NOT deserve it.

He is relatively "without sin" meaning the terrible things happening to him did not occur due to sin in his life or rejecting God, and comparitively he is faultless, but he is not faultless nor sinless in an absolute sense.

i doubt the hebrews believed in this modern absolute sense. they don't seem to have believed in original sin either (same logic -- if job is tainted by original sin, he deserves it). i think the jewish god is much more understanding than the christian god, ironically.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by randman, posted 08-15-2005 12:58 PM randman has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Chiroptera, posted 08-15-2005 3:55 PM arachnophilia has responded

  
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 1209 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 17 of 61 (233469)
08-15-2005 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Tal
08-15-2005 3:27 PM


Tal writes:

Did my dad die so that my mom and I could know Him? I think so. Is he burning in hell right now because of his decision not to walk down that aisle. Yep.

First of all, I am sorry you lost your dad when you were young. I lost mine too when I was 17 but I don't go looking for reasons because I don't think we can know the mind of God and I don't think God works that way. I also don't see any useful purpose in speculation about who might or might not be "burning in hell". And I am pretty convinced it has little or nothing to do with "walking down the aisle." I tend to think that hell is mostly here on earth anyway in the form of alienation from God and your fellow humans. We are called to "love God with all our mind, heart, soul and strength" and to "love our neighbor as ourselves". That is enough for me and it has nothing to do with "walking down the aisle" and everything to do with how I treat my neighbor (and thus love God, because they are one and the same).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Tal, posted 08-15-2005 3:27 PM Tal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Tal, posted 08-15-2005 4:03 PM deerbreh has not yet responded
 Message 21 by Tal, posted 08-15-2005 4:10 PM deerbreh has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6812
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 18 of 61 (233470)
08-15-2005 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by arachnophilia
08-15-2005 3:34 PM


Re: explanation
quote:
i think the jewish god is much more understanding than the christian god, ironically.

What do you expect? The Book of Job starts out with God and Satan getting into a pissing match. Hey, Yahweh turns out to be a pretty regular bloke, eh? Not all that different from you and me, really.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by arachnophilia, posted 08-15-2005 3:34 PM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by arachnophilia, posted 08-16-2005 12:03 AM Chiroptera has not yet responded

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 3994 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 19 of 61 (233471)
08-15-2005 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Nuggin
08-15-2005 3:41 AM


Re: You guys are really scaring me
I don't think anyone here would argue against the idea that the God of the OT and the God of the NT are psychologically very different entities.

No, they are not psycholically different. It was a different spiritual battle. Let me explain.

When Adam and Eve fell, God made a promise to Satan:

So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.

And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."

Ahhhh, now all Satan has to do is kill Eve's offspring. If he can do that, he can stop his head from being crushed (think terminator). Not long after, the first murder takes place. Cain kills Abel. Well he got 1 out of 3 and that ain't bad. Down through Genesis, we see God telling Abraham that he will be the father of a great nation and will produce the messiah.

Oky doky, now all Satan has to do is wipe out Abraham's family, which of course grew into the Jews. The entire battle of the old testament was Satan's attempt to completely wipe the Jews off of the face of the earth. It was a bloody battle on both sides. The genocide of the Jews was first tried in Egpyt, and continues on TO THIS DAY. Hello. That right there should clue anyone who is paying attention that God is real.

Anywho, once Jesus came Satan knew he had to kill him before he could assend to the throne. And so Jesus died, but rose again. Now after the resurection, Satans tactics have turned from eradicating the Jews (although that remains up there on the list of things to do, evidence Nazis and all of Isreal's neighbors). Now Satan has to fight the church, and the church is armed with the Holy Spirit. It is no longer a battle to kill off a bloodline, it is a battle over the souls (mind, will, emotions) of men.


'Now isn't it amazing. I tell you that nobody made a simple toy like that (solar system model) and you don't believe me. Yet you gaze out into the solar System - the intricate marvelous machine that is around you - and you dare say to me that no one made that. I don't believe it'. -Sir Isaac Newton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Nuggin, posted 08-15-2005 3:41 AM Nuggin has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by arachnophilia, posted 08-16-2005 12:12 AM Tal has responded

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 3994 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 20 of 61 (233472)
08-15-2005 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by deerbreh
08-15-2005 3:53 PM


That's for you to decide, but I've talked to 2 people who have been to hell and back (Near Death Experience)

One of them, ironically enough, believes hell is there, knows it is real, but still doesn't believe in God.

I personally believe in Hell (there are actually 2) in a literal sense. There is the one you go to now to hang out if die without salvation, and then there is the lake of fire at the end of time.


'Now isn't it amazing. I tell you that nobody made a simple toy like that (solar system model) and you don't believe me. Yet you gaze out into the solar System - the intricate marvelous machine that is around you - and you dare say to me that no one made that. I don't believe it'. -Sir Isaac Newton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by deerbreh, posted 08-15-2005 3:53 PM deerbreh has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by arachnophilia, posted 08-16-2005 12:14 AM Tal has responded

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 3994 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 21 of 61 (233474)
08-15-2005 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by deerbreh
08-15-2005 3:53 PM


That is enough for me and it has nothing to do with "walking down the aisle" and everything to do with how I treat my neighbor (and thus love God, because they are one and the same).

but,

"It is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast" Eph. 2:8-9

It's not what you do, its who you put your trust in.


'Now isn't it amazing. I tell you that nobody made a simple toy like that (solar system model) and you don't believe me. Yet you gaze out into the solar System - the intricate marvelous machine that is around you - and you dare say to me that no one made that. I don't believe it'. -Sir Isaac Newton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by deerbreh, posted 08-15-2005 3:53 PM deerbreh has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by deerbreh, posted 08-15-2005 4:39 PM Tal has not yet responded
 Message 32 by nator, posted 08-16-2005 12:12 PM Tal has responded
 Message 35 by macaroniandcheese, posted 08-16-2005 2:21 PM Tal has not yet responded

  
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 1209 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 22 of 61 (233483)
08-15-2005 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Tal
08-15-2005 4:10 PM


You are not saved BECAUSE of your works. You love your neighbor BECAUSE you love God and your neighbor is God's creation. Not only that, "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, etc." and "By their WORKS ye shall know them." And also, "if ye have done it unto the least of these ye have done it unto me." If you don't love your neighbor than you don't love God. So yes, saved by grace but it either shows or does not show.

Finally, good works can build treasure in heaven and thus lead us to God.

Mark 10:21

Jesus looking at him loved him, and said to him, "One thing you lack. Go, sell whatever you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me, taking up the cross."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Tal, posted 08-15-2005 4:10 PM Tal has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6829
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 23 of 61 (233496)
08-15-2005 5:34 PM


One interpretation of the Job story is that it was original meant as a parody. I havent read the book but have read a couple reviews. I think it is an interesting take on the issue.
"Zuckerman argues that the book of Job was intended as a parody protesting the stereotype of the traditional righteous sufferer as patient and silent."
Job the Silent
A Study in Historical Counterpoint
Bruce Zuckerman

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by arachnophilia, posted 08-16-2005 12:15 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 294 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 24 of 61 (233555)
08-16-2005 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Chiroptera
08-15-2005 3:55 PM


Re: explanation
Not all that different from you and me, really.

it does say we were made in his image.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Chiroptera, posted 08-15-2005 3:55 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 294 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 25 of 61 (233556)
08-16-2005 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Tal
08-15-2005 3:55 PM


questions.
let's go through this line by line, shall we?

When Adam and Eve fell, God made a promise to Satan:

quote:
So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock

is satan livestock?

quote:
and all the wild animals!

is satan a wild animal?

quote:
You will crawl on your belly

does satan crawl on his belly?

quote:
and you will eat dust

does satan eat dust?

Down through Genesis, we see God telling Abraham that he will be the father of a great nation and will produce the messiah.

chapter and verse on that last part?

he genocide of the Jews was first tried in Egpyt, and continues on TO THIS DAY.

since in this completely unfounded interpretation of genesis 3's etiology as prophecy the crushing-of-the-head bit takes place with the messiah conquering death (ie: christ on the cross) it stands to reason that the battle's already been lost, hasn't it?

why should it continue?

Now Satan has to fight the church, and the church is armed with the Holy Spirit. It is no longer a battle to kill off a bloodline, it is a battle over the souls (mind, will, emotions) of men.

if so, then why has satan's traditional role in judaism ALWAYS been to test the hearts and souls of men?

(as we see in job?)


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Tal, posted 08-15-2005 3:55 PM Tal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Tal, posted 08-16-2005 9:27 AM arachnophilia has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 294 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 26 of 61 (233557)
08-16-2005 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Tal
08-15-2005 4:03 PM


(Near Death Experience)

look up some info on those nde's tal. i think you'll find that they're rather routine for test pilots in g-force simulators. deprive the brain of oxygen, get an nde.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Tal, posted 08-15-2005 4:03 PM Tal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Tal, posted 08-16-2005 9:21 AM arachnophilia has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 294 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 27 of 61 (233558)
08-16-2005 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Theodoric
08-15-2005 5:34 PM


One interpretation of the Job story is that it was original meant as a parody. I havent read the book but have read a couple reviews. I think it is an interesting take on the issue.
"Zuckerman argues that the book of Job was intended as a parody protesting the stereotype of the traditional righteous sufferer as patient and silent."

interesting.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Theodoric, posted 08-15-2005 5:34 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 3994 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 28 of 61 (233628)
08-16-2005 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by arachnophilia
08-16-2005 12:14 AM


Doesn't fly with me (I love puns). I know test pilots that have gone through G-lock, and its nothing like what is described to me by the people that experienced NDEs.

But, as always, everything is up to how you interpret it. Either Patch went to hell and back or his brain produced funny images because it was still active at a very low level when the rest of his cardiopulminary system had been shut down for x minutes.


'Now isn't it amazing. I tell you that nobody made a simple toy like that (solar system model) and you don't believe me. Yet you gaze out into the solar System - the intricate marvelous machine that is around you - and you dare say to me that no one made that. I don't believe it'. -Sir Isaac Newton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by arachnophilia, posted 08-16-2005 12:14 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by nator, posted 08-16-2005 12:18 PM Tal has not yet responded
 Message 37 by arachnophilia, posted 08-16-2005 6:10 PM Tal has not yet responded

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 3994 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 29 of 61 (233630)
08-16-2005 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by arachnophilia
08-16-2005 12:12 AM


Re: questions.
Well, I'm not going to argue with you on whether or not you think Satan was the serpent or not.

since in this completely unfounded interpretation of genesis 3's etiology as prophecy the crushing-of-the-head bit takes place with the messiah conquering death (ie: christ on the cross) it stands to reason that the battle's already been lost, hasn't it?

That was my point on what the difference was between the violence of the OT compared to the NT. Satan still wishes Isreal destroyed because it is still God's chosen nation. Interestingly enough, Isreal is the only people on earth who have been disbanded as a country, yet survived as a people for more than 2,000 years. Biblical accuracy of that prophecy aside, just the fact that Isreal exists is a testimony to God's hand on that people.


'Now isn't it amazing. I tell you that nobody made a simple toy like that (solar system model) and you don't believe me. Yet you gaze out into the solar System - the intricate marvelous machine that is around you - and you dare say to me that no one made that. I don't believe it'. -Sir Isaac Newton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by arachnophilia, posted 08-16-2005 12:12 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by CK, posted 08-16-2005 9:38 AM Tal has responded
 Message 39 by arachnophilia, posted 08-16-2005 6:21 PM Tal has responded
 Message 48 by ramoss, posted 08-17-2005 8:22 AM Tal has not yet responded

  
CK
Member (Idle past 2444 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 30 of 61 (233631)
08-16-2005 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Tal
08-16-2005 9:27 AM


Downright rude
I think it's downright rude for you to start talking about
quote:
biblical accuracy of that prophecy
when you have started a thread about that very subject which you then ran away from because the questions were too hard and your reading was exposed as being quote-mining and Cut'n'paste.

This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 16-Aug-2005 09:38 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Tal, posted 08-16-2005 9:27 AM Tal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Tal, posted 08-16-2005 10:10 AM CK has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019