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Author
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Topic: Book of Job -- Little help here
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 5 of 61 (233307)
08-15-2005 1:20 AM
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Reply to: Message 4 by randman
08-15-2005 12:47 AM
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Re: explanation
First off, Job is not sinless. He is righteous and "has not sinned" in the context of having a done a sin to warrant God's judgment against him. job has to be sinless for the book to make sense. it's a treatise against the wisdom movement. they basically said (portrayed by jobs two friends) that people get what they deserve. the people who do well in life and prosper economically are blessed because they are good. and the people who do badly must have sinned and deserved god's wrath. this is the position of MOST of the old testament. when judah is taken off to exile, it was because they had wronged god somehow and broken their covenant. the other tribes the hebrews were told to anihilate deserved it for being idolatrous and following other gods. the point of job is turn that argument on it's end. what happens when a good many is unjustly punished? this kind of argument predates christ's radical "blessed are the poor" beatitudes (and is probably the foundation of them). job has to be totally undeserving of god's wrath. job is perfect, according to the book, and without sin (ie: AT ALL). keep in mind that this of course an entirely hypothetical argument.
The message though is not that faith will get you through. The message is that God has His own plans, that it's His world, and for His own reasons He allows misery and destruction but that faithfulness to God does pay off, and the message is that not only the ungodly suffer but the godly do to. Job and all of us belong to God, and it suited God's purpose for Job to be tested by Satan, and to show how through that suffering He could endure. and here i think you've hit the nail on the head. job whines for 40 some-odd chapters about how undeserving he is. and god shows up and basically says "see all this. i made it. who the hell are you to tell me what to do. sit down puny mortal." job then ADMITS to sin. which is the most baffling portion of the whole book. job is sinless and perfect -- but next to god he is tiny and flawed and full of sin. some might even point out that his whole tirade against god is, in fact, sin. another interesting suggestion i've heard is that job is actually taunting and testing god. job is questioning his faith; he's not sure he believes in an absentee god. so he TESTS god, and tricks him into showing up. job remits because his faith has been validated. i'm not sure whether or not i like that reading, but it seems to have some weight to it. anyways, as some may point out, job gets all his stuff back. this seems to be a case of two different stories than have been conglomerated. the first two chapters and the last chapter of job appear to be a different story with a different point than the middle of job. they are stylistically very different, and seem to get at different points. one is that we aren't to question god's will, and the other is that we should have faith in the bad times too. not totally compatible, but similar goals.
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by randman, posted 08-15-2005 12:47 AM | | randman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 6 by randman, posted 08-15-2005 1:47 AM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 8 of 61 (233332)
08-15-2005 6:30 AM
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Reply to: Message 6 by randman
08-15-2005 1:47 AM
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Re: explanation
The end of the book, as you state, shows that Job recognizes he is not sinless. not exactly. he admits that compared to god he is sinful. he repents of his testing god, i think. (a sin he did not start the book with)
The "without sin" comment then I take to reference, in context, without any sin as to anger God or incur God's judgment. The idea that the Old Testament, Job, or any part of the Bible concludes men, other than Jesus, are sinless is just wrong. except that for the book og job to make sense at all, job needs to be COMPLETELY sinless. it doesn't work otherwise. like paul says, the wages of sin are death -- job's getting off easy. if he's sinned at all, ever, in any magnitude, he deserves god's wrath. he deserves god wrath, the book doesn't make sense.
But he is "without sin" in the sense of any sin being held against him. That's how I read it, and believe it's the way the text was written. if he had sinned, and atoned for that sin, it would in essence be taken off his record. but you can't be both "without sin" and sinful. doesn't work that way.
On the part of Job testing God, I don't see that as Job did not and would not originate that level of suffering on Himself. You are right that the message is God is saying, hey, you are just a creation so how can you dare claim I am wrong, or something like that. not exactly what i was getting at. ignore the first two chapter of job for a second. what is job doing? he's basically taunting god to show up by making all kind of accusations. it's like a kid jumping up and down and saying "oh yeah?!? well if god's real, let him strike me down with a bolt of lightning right now! *pause* see? just like i said, there is no god." job's mentality seems to be that god would not allow suffering of the just -- so there must not be a god. instead of having faith, he wants to god to prove himself. the book ends when god does.
God's response to Job is just to point out He is God, and never really explains it to Job. no, he really doesn't. but then: a. i don't think job's looking for an explanation, just a validation, and b. why should god have to explain his reasons? let alone show up in the first place?
That's faith, but it's not unreasonable imo. all faith is unreasonable, by definition. except for job's, of course, who knows god exists.
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 6 by randman, posted 08-15-2005 1:47 AM | | randman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 13 by randman, posted 08-15-2005 12:58 PM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 9 of 61 (233334)
08-15-2005 6:40 AM
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Reply to: Message 7 by Nuggin
08-15-2005 3:41 AM
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Re: You guys are really scaring me
God is vengful and petty, he's gonna do mean things to you and you better not question it, because he's God and that's that. Umm, that doesn't sound like a very happy corner stone of a religeon. to be fair: you asked. if you wanna skip forward a bit and talk about christ's take (blessed are the poor, etc, and about how god takes care of everything) it's a much nicer way of wording the same thing.
It seems like people are saying: "Bad things happen to bad people because they are bad. Bad things happen to good people because God wants them to suffer too." well, no, you've got the argument confused. one side says "bad things happen to bad people; good things happen to good people." the other side is saying: "that's not realistic, is it?" frankly, bad things do sometimes happen to good people and vice versa. what explanation is a semi-religios jew more than 2000 years ago to provide? job ends on kind of a question mark. job doesn't know why god does what he does. we the reader never find out. the author is writing fundamentally about reality. and nobody knows why good people suffer and bad people prosper some times.
When we look at Job as a literary exercise, we need to take into account the level of philisophical sophistication of the writers. yes, and job is basically a philosophy essay at its core.
I don't think anyone here would argue against the idea that the God of the OT and the God of the NT are psychologically very different entities. actually, i would. people like to argue this because they read the first few books and god is petty and child-like. not to mention angry, vengeful, and often murderous. but by the later and lesser prophets, god is much more nt than most people realize. it's not a big jump between exilic judaism and early christianity.
But how is that possible? How can God change over time? If he's all knowing and everything is a part of his plan, why would that plan change? i think i (and most others here) would argue that it's not god who's done the changing, but the societies that wrote about him. i take the bible with an incredible grain of salt, realizing the potential of religion to manipulate the masses. the percieved change in deity is actually the change in the perception of deity.
I'm not saying don't have faith, I'm just questioning this belief that every little thing that happens is part of some incredibly intricate plan. i don't think that's what job is saying.
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 7 by Nuggin, posted 08-15-2005 3:41 AM | | Nuggin has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 16 of 61 (233463)
08-15-2005 3:34 PM
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Reply to: Message 13 by randman
08-15-2005 12:58 PM
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Re: explanation
I don't want to waste time. The comment "without sin" is in a specific context. No one is absolutely sinless. You even admit that is the case "compared to God" so you hold a contradictory stance here. no, the BOOK holds a contradictory stance.
You can try to blur the complexities if you want with simplistic reasoning, but it makes sense only if Job is not absolutely sinless, compared to God, not the other way around. the book is about bad things happening to good people. if job is not completely sinless then he deserves it. end of book. the point is that he does NOT deserve it.
He is relatively "without sin" meaning the terrible things happening to him did not occur due to sin in his life or rejecting God, and comparitively he is faultless, but he is not faultless nor sinless in an absolute sense. i doubt the hebrews believed in this modern absolute sense. they don't seem to have believed in original sin either (same logic -- if job is tainted by original sin, he deserves it). i think the jewish god is much more understanding than the christian god, ironically.
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 13 by randman, posted 08-15-2005 12:58 PM | | randman has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 18 by Chiroptera, posted 08-15-2005 3:55 PM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Re: explanation
Not all that different from you and me, really. it does say we were made in his image.
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 18 by Chiroptera, posted 08-15-2005 3:55 PM | | Chiroptera has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 25 of 61 (233556)
08-16-2005 12:12 AM
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Reply to: Message 19 by Tal
08-15-2005 3:55 PM
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questions.
let's go through this line by line, shall we?
When Adam and Eve fell, God made a promise to Satan: quote:
So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
is satan livestock?
quote:
and all the wild animals!
is satan a wild animal?
quote:
You will crawl on your belly
does satan crawl on his belly?
quote:
and you will eat dust
does satan eat dust?
Down through Genesis, we see God telling Abraham that he will be the father of a great nation and will produce the messiah. chapter and verse on that last part?
he genocide of the Jews was first tried in Egpyt, and continues on TO THIS DAY. since in this completely unfounded interpretation of genesis 3's etiology as prophecy the crushing-of-the-head bit takes place with the messiah conquering death (ie: christ on the cross) it stands to reason that the battle's already been lost, hasn't it? why should it continue?
Now Satan has to fight the church, and the church is armed with the Holy Spirit. It is no longer a battle to kill off a bloodline, it is a battle over the souls (mind, will, emotions) of men. if so, then why has satan's traditional role in judaism ALWAYS been to test the hearts and souls of men? (as we see in job?)
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 19 by Tal, posted 08-15-2005 3:55 PM | | Tal has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 29 by Tal, posted 08-16-2005 9:27 AM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 26 of 61 (233557)
08-16-2005 12:14 AM
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Reply to: Message 20 by Tal
08-15-2005 4:03 PM
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(Near Death Experience) look up some info on those nde's tal. i think you'll find that they're rather routine for test pilots in g-force simulators. deprive the brain of oxygen, get an nde.
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 20 by Tal, posted 08-15-2005 4:03 PM | | Tal has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 28 by Tal, posted 08-16-2005 9:21 AM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 27 of 61 (233558)
08-16-2005 12:15 AM
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Reply to: Message 23 by Theodoric
08-15-2005 5:34 PM
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One interpretation of the Job story is that it was original meant as a parody. I havent read the book but have read a couple reviews. I think it is an interesting take on the issue.
"Zuckerman argues that the book of Job was intended as a parody protesting the stereotype of the traditional righteous sufferer as patient and silent." interesting.
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 23 by Theodoric, posted 08-15-2005 5:34 PM | | Theodoric has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 37 of 61 (233796)
08-16-2005 6:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 28 by Tal
08-16-2005 9:21 AM
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nde's
Doesn't fly with me (I love puns). I know test pilots that have gone through G-lock, and its nothing like what is described to me by the people that experienced NDEs tunnel vision? bright lights? flashbacks? no. doesn't sound like an nde at all.
But, as always, everything is up to how you interpret it. Either Patch went to hell and back or his brain produced funny images because it was still active at a very low level when the rest of his cardiopulminary system had been shut down for x minutes. which one sounds like a more reasonabl explanation to you, tal? we know oxygen deprived brains hallucinate. that's why kids sniff glue. the faith here is completely redundant. we don't need miracles and the supernatural to explain completely banal natural occurances.
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 28 by Tal, posted 08-16-2005 9:21 AM | | Tal has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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solomon's sin wasn't marrying 700 women, his sin was bringing the gods of foreign women into the kingdom and worshipping them. oh, and cutting his hair. don't forget that.
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 39 of 61 (233801)
08-16-2005 6:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 29 by Tal
08-16-2005 9:27 AM
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Re: questions.
Well, I'm not going to argue with you on whether or not you think Satan was the serpent or not. no, of course not. that would be a little too close to the topic at hand, wouldn't it? hey, you know what? there's a serpent in job. he's a really big powerful, special and probably mythological serpent, too. and he's not satan. satan is described as "among the sons of god." this may or may not mean he is one of that class -- which are possibly angelic. and here's the quirky bit. satan disappears from the book of job. in chapters 1 and 2, satan is trying to destroy job to test his faith in god. but at the end of the book god himself shows up and effectively claims responsibility. and how dare job question god's actions -- not satan's actions. so who's doing the testing? in fact, the whole bit about satan even being in any of the bible talking to anyone kind of refutes that he could be the serpent. see, the serpent gets in trouble by opening his mouth. he says something he shouldn't have said. god punishes the serpent by giving him an oral fixation, eating dirt. genesis 3 contains, effectively, the explanation for why snakes lick the ground in front of them: to shut them up.
Satan still wishes Isreal destroyed because it is still God's chosen nation. and yet this is COMPLETELY INCONSISTENT with the book of job. satan in job isn't trying to kill jews or destroy the jewish nation. he is testing the faith of a single man. satan in the ot (and you'll only find him a few times) is never trying to destroy, except to further his goal of testing. and he never acts out of accordance with god's will. (see the bit above about god justifying satan's test)
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 29 by Tal, posted 08-16-2005 9:27 AM | | Tal has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 40 by Tal, posted 08-16-2005 6:47 PM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 41 of 61 (233819)
08-16-2005 6:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 40 by Tal
08-16-2005 6:47 PM
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Re: questions.
Hello...history? Need a lesson from World War II? Maybe a lesson of Isreal's existance in the last 50 years and what her neighbors want to do to her? Really, how can you ignore those facts? i'm not. why are you ignoring mine, that are actually ON TOPIC:
Other than that, your theology of satan is way off. Study up a bit more. an excellent refutation, tal. now howabout you actually argue your point. because frankly i *HAVE* studied up a bit more. and apparently a lot more than you have. heck, your analysis is not even consistent with a base reading of the very book we're discussing. have you even read job? i've provided textual evidence of why you're wrong. i'm sorry if they taught you different in church, but i'm concerned with what the bible actually says, not theology.
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 40 by Tal, posted 08-16-2005 6:47 PM | | Tal has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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wow. i don't know how i did that. either way, i wasn't being totally serious -- samson didn't exactly cut his own hair. i was more making fun ej, because i accused him of sins earlier that included getting haircuts.
אָרַח
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 56 of 61 (234183)
08-17-2005 4:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 47 by ramoss
08-17-2005 8:13 AM
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jesus's sacrfice
You don't understand what that Tanakh is when it comes to the Jewish faith. The tanakh is the story of a people's search for God, and an example of how even people who are flawed can find sanctity in God. It also is some rules to follow to help bring people closer to god. One of those rules is 'NO HUMAN SACRIFICE'. This was demonstrated by Abraham, when the ram was provided instead of Issac. That was considered a promise from god never to require a human sacrifice ever again. That makes the concept of "Jesus was a sacrifice for our sins" against what the Jewish faith believes about God. It's not a free gift if you have to give up everything you believe in to accept it. ow. yes, this is actually a major problem i've been having with my christian faith -- judaism makes sense to me. christianity makes sense to me. but placing christianity on top of judaism doesn't. they don't work too well together, and this is one of the BIG reasons. i don't have an answer. however, it should also be pointed out that jesus was pretty far from a sacrifice in the traditional sense. it certainly did not follow the levitical guidelines for the atonement of sins, did it? This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 08-17-2005 04:36 PM
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 47 by ramoss, posted 08-17-2005 8:13 AM | | ramoss has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 59 by ramoss, posted 08-17-2005 5:53 PM | | arachnophilia has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 57 of 61 (234185)
08-17-2005 4:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 48 by ramoss
08-17-2005 8:22 AM
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Re: questions.
In the Jewish religion (the religion that actually included Job inthe bible), Shaitan (Or the accuser), does not actually have free will (None of the angels do). THat means that everything that satan does is by the will of god. What is satan's job? He is sort of an imp of the perverse, to give bad choices to mankind. By having bad choices, that allows man to be able to make GOOD choices, and thereby lead a more sanctified life. More information about Satan, and his relationship to god and man can be found in the Jewish commentary about the book of Job at http://www.torah.org/learning/iyov/archives.html hey, ramoss. can you do me a favor and drop into this thread and tell eltonian james that? we're having a dispute about ezekiel 28. he seems to think it's about satan, even when it says flat-out it's about the prince of tyre. i've even mentioned what each bit is referring to, and why it can't be about satan. he then accuses me of having little understanding of the scripture, but is of course failing to rebut my actual points. it'd be nice if he could hear it from someone else too. This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 08-17-2005 04:43 PM
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 48 by ramoss, posted 08-17-2005 8:22 AM | | ramoss has not replied |
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