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Author Topic:   Book of Job -- Little help here
Tal
Member (Idle past 5676 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 15 of 61 (233462)
08-15-2005 3:27 PM


It seems like people are saying: "Bad things happen to bad people because they are bad. Bad things happen to good people because God wants them to suffer too."
Yikes.
Seems like both those sentences start with "Bad things happen..."
If I may take a stab at this. I will begin by saying that Job was a real man and is buried in the modern day country of Oman. I've been to his grave. I think it is important to note how Job's life ended.
The LORD blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the first. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys. 13 And he also had seven sons and three daughters. 14 The first daughter he named Jemimah, the second Keziah and the third Keren-Happuch. 15 Nowhere in all the land were there found women as beautiful as Job's daughters, and their father granted them an inheritance along with their brothers.
Job 42
Job could be looked at like you describe; God letting bad things happen to good people to test their faith. But that's now what the story is about IMO. The first thing the story tells us is that God is in control.
One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"
Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."
8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."
9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. 10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."
12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."
Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.
Job 1
Notice God had a hedge of protection around Job so that Satan couldn't touch him. God doesn't cause pain, he protects us from it; that pain being sin in a fallen world caused by Adam's decision. After Job is found to be faithful, even though he questions God and God puts him in place, Job's life is restored at the end. Now this story can be read by all down through the ages as an example of God's love.
Why does God cause suffering? It is a difficult question for sure, and there are no easy answers. Let me tell you my story.
I was adopted when I was 2 years old, and every now and then we would go to church with my uncle. I would say we went 3 or 4 times a year. One Sunday when I was 6, my mom, dad, and I were visiting the church and sitting in the foyer listening to the sermon because I was sick. The message of the sermon was that today is the day of salvation. Nobody is promised tomorrow, so on and so forth. My dad decided it was time to go when the invitation started. So he went to open the doors, but they didn't open. He pushed on them again, and they still didn't open. Finally he slammed his shoulder into the door, the doors open, and we left. Not much was said on the way home.
My dad was shot and killed 2 days later in a robery.
Natrually this devestated my mother. I was just old enough to understand what happened, but not old enough to understand or question why. I just new my dad was gone. My mother, who believed in God before hand, now questioned Him much like Job did. If God was so loving and all powerful, why would He take her husband away from her that she loved so much?
Good question. So my mom spent that next summer asking God that and reading the bible to see if He had an answer for her. One day God told her. By that, I mean she read something in the bible that jumped out at her that seemed to perfectly fit her situation. I'll never know what it was because she threw the bible across the room and screamed at the top of her lungs, "THERE IS NO GOD!" Then she ran by my room and out of the house.
She took a long 2 hour walk around the neighood and eventually made her way back to the house. She walked into her room and started cleaning things up. She noticed the bible lying face up and open. As she bent down to pick it up her eyes happen to fall onto Psalms 14:1, "The fool says in his heart, there is no God."
It was as if the God of the universe, in all His awesome glory, came down to her room and berated her on the spot, telling her, "Who are you to tell me I don't exist?"
And she has been a christain ever since. I followed a couple of years later. Did my dad die so that my mom and I could know Him? I think so. Is he burning in hell right now because of his decision not to walk down that aisle. Yep. But that was his decision, and one we are all faced with at some point.
But because of that suffering, my mom and I, not to mention the other lives we have touched, will be in heaven for eternity with the Father. And I think 1,343,654,038,374 years from now, this earth will be a distant memory and the pain will not be there. God's grace for fallen man is the story, and remember that Jesus suffered more than anyone, so He knows.
I think the message of Job is not why do bad things happen to good people; but rather why do good things happen to bad people.
<
This message has been edited by Tal, 08-15-2005 03:44 PM

'Now isn't it amazing. I tell you that nobody made a simple toy like that (solar system model) and you don't believe me. Yet you gaze out into the solar System - the intricate marvelous machine that is around you - and you dare say to me that no one made that. I don't believe it'. -Sir Isaac Newton

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by deerbreh, posted 08-15-2005 3:53 PM Tal has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5676 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 19 of 61 (233471)
08-15-2005 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Nuggin
08-15-2005 3:41 AM


Re: You guys are really scaring me
I don't think anyone here would argue against the idea that the God of the OT and the God of the NT are psychologically very different entities.
No, they are not psycholically different. It was a different spiritual battle. Let me explain.
When Adam and Eve fell, God made a promise to Satan:
So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."
Ahhhh, now all Satan has to do is kill Eve's offspring. If he can do that, he can stop his head from being crushed (think terminator). Not long after, the first murder takes place. Cain kills Abel. Well he got 1 out of 3 and that ain't bad. Down through Genesis, we see God telling Abraham that he will be the father of a great nation and will produce the messiah.
Oky doky, now all Satan has to do is wipe out Abraham's family, which of course grew into the Jews. The entire battle of the old testament was Satan's attempt to completely wipe the Jews off of the face of the earth. It was a bloody battle on both sides. The genocide of the Jews was first tried in Egpyt, and continues on TO THIS DAY. Hello. That right there should clue anyone who is paying attention that God is real.
Anywho, once Jesus came Satan knew he had to kill him before he could assend to the throne. And so Jesus died, but rose again. Now after the resurection, Satans tactics have turned from eradicating the Jews (although that remains up there on the list of things to do, evidence Nazis and all of Isreal's neighbors). Now Satan has to fight the church, and the church is armed with the Holy Spirit. It is no longer a battle to kill off a bloodline, it is a battle over the souls (mind, will, emotions) of men.

'Now isn't it amazing. I tell you that nobody made a simple toy like that (solar system model) and you don't believe me. Yet you gaze out into the solar System - the intricate marvelous machine that is around you - and you dare say to me that no one made that. I don't believe it'. -Sir Isaac Newton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Nuggin, posted 08-15-2005 3:41 AM Nuggin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by arachnophilia, posted 08-16-2005 12:12 AM Tal has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5676 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 20 of 61 (233472)
08-15-2005 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by deerbreh
08-15-2005 3:53 PM


That's for you to decide, but I've talked to 2 people who have been to hell and back (Near Death Experience)
One of them, ironically enough, believes hell is there, knows it is real, but still doesn't believe in God.
I personally believe in Hell (there are actually 2) in a literal sense. There is the one you go to now to hang out if die without salvation, and then there is the lake of fire at the end of time.

'Now isn't it amazing. I tell you that nobody made a simple toy like that (solar system model) and you don't believe me. Yet you gaze out into the solar System - the intricate marvelous machine that is around you - and you dare say to me that no one made that. I don't believe it'. -Sir Isaac Newton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by deerbreh, posted 08-15-2005 3:53 PM deerbreh has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by arachnophilia, posted 08-16-2005 12:14 AM Tal has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5676 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 21 of 61 (233474)
08-15-2005 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by deerbreh
08-15-2005 3:53 PM


That is enough for me and it has nothing to do with "walking down the aisle" and everything to do with how I treat my neighbor (and thus love God, because they are one and the same).
but,
"It is by grace you have been saved, through faithand this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of Godnot by works, so that no one can boast" Eph. 2:8-9
It's not what you do, its who you put your trust in.

'Now isn't it amazing. I tell you that nobody made a simple toy like that (solar system model) and you don't believe me. Yet you gaze out into the solar System - the intricate marvelous machine that is around you - and you dare say to me that no one made that. I don't believe it'. -Sir Isaac Newton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by deerbreh, posted 08-15-2005 3:53 PM deerbreh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by deerbreh, posted 08-15-2005 4:39 PM Tal has not replied
 Message 32 by nator, posted 08-16-2005 12:12 PM Tal has replied
 Message 35 by macaroniandcheese, posted 08-16-2005 2:21 PM Tal has not replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5676 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 28 of 61 (233628)
08-16-2005 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by arachnophilia
08-16-2005 12:14 AM


Doesn't fly with me (I love puns). I know test pilots that have gone through G-lock, and its nothing like what is described to me by the people that experienced NDEs.
But, as always, everything is up to how you interpret it. Either Patch went to hell and back or his brain produced funny images because it was still active at a very low level when the rest of his cardiopulminary system had been shut down for x minutes.

'Now isn't it amazing. I tell you that nobody made a simple toy like that (solar system model) and you don't believe me. Yet you gaze out into the solar System - the intricate marvelous machine that is around you - and you dare say to me that no one made that. I don't believe it'. -Sir Isaac Newton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by arachnophilia, posted 08-16-2005 12:14 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by nator, posted 08-16-2005 12:18 PM Tal has not replied
 Message 37 by arachnophilia, posted 08-16-2005 6:10 PM Tal has not replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5676 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 29 of 61 (233630)
08-16-2005 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by arachnophilia
08-16-2005 12:12 AM


Re: questions.
Well, I'm not going to argue with you on whether or not you think Satan was the serpent or not.
since in this completely unfounded interpretation of genesis 3's etiology as prophecy the crushing-of-the-head bit takes place with the messiah conquering death (ie: christ on the cross) it stands to reason that the battle's already been lost, hasn't it?
That was my point on what the difference was between the violence of the OT compared to the NT. Satan still wishes Isreal destroyed because it is still God's chosen nation. Interestingly enough, Isreal is the only people on earth who have been disbanded as a country, yet survived as a people for more than 2,000 years. Biblical accuracy of that prophecy aside, just the fact that Isreal exists is a testimony to God's hand on that people.

'Now isn't it amazing. I tell you that nobody made a simple toy like that (solar system model) and you don't believe me. Yet you gaze out into the solar System - the intricate marvelous machine that is around you - and you dare say to me that no one made that. I don't believe it'. -Sir Isaac Newton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by arachnophilia, posted 08-16-2005 12:12 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by CK, posted 08-16-2005 9:38 AM Tal has replied
 Message 39 by arachnophilia, posted 08-16-2005 6:21 PM Tal has replied
 Message 48 by ramoss, posted 08-17-2005 8:22 AM Tal has not replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5676 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 31 of 61 (233640)
08-16-2005 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by CK
08-16-2005 9:38 AM


Re: Downright rude
Yes genius, that is why I said,
Biblical accuracy of that prophecy aside
Hello?

'Now isn't it amazing. I tell you that nobody made a simple toy like that (solar system model) and you don't believe me. Yet you gaze out into the solar System - the intricate marvelous machine that is around you - and you dare say to me that no one made that. I don't believe it'. -Sir Isaac Newton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by CK, posted 08-16-2005 9:38 AM CK has not replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5676 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 34 of 61 (233693)
08-16-2005 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by nator
08-16-2005 12:12 PM


Well, you can have a nice eternity with all of those rapists and murderers who converted in prison.
Moses was a murderer, David was an adulterer, Zachius was a tax collector (little humor there), the theif on the cross was a theif and a murderer, Solomon had 700 wives (and he was the wisest man ever...uhhuh...). Sin is sin, and we are all guilty of it. It is just a matter of whether you accept the free gift Jesus bought for you by His sacrifice.

'Now isn't it amazing. I tell you that nobody made a simple toy like that (solar system model) and you don't believe me. Yet you gaze out into the solar System - the intricate marvelous machine that is around you - and you dare say to me that no one made that. I don't believe it'. -Sir Isaac Newton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by nator, posted 08-16-2005 12:12 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by macaroniandcheese, posted 08-16-2005 2:23 PM Tal has not replied
 Message 45 by nator, posted 08-17-2005 7:42 AM Tal has not replied
 Message 47 by ramoss, posted 08-17-2005 8:13 AM Tal has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5676 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 40 of 61 (233817)
08-16-2005 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by arachnophilia
08-16-2005 6:21 PM


Re: questions.
Hello...history? Need a lesson from World War II? Maybe a lesson of Isreal's existance in the last 50 years and what her neighbors want to do to her?
Really, how can you ignore those facts?
Other than that, your theology of satan is way off. Study up a bit more.

'Now isn't it amazing. I tell you that nobody made a simple toy like that (solar system model) and you don't believe me. Yet you gaze out into the solar System - the intricate marvelous machine that is around you - and you dare say to me that no one made that. I don't believe it'. -Sir Isaac Newton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by arachnophilia, posted 08-16-2005 6:21 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by arachnophilia, posted 08-16-2005 6:51 PM Tal has not replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5676 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 50 of 61 (233977)
08-17-2005 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by ramoss
08-17-2005 8:13 AM


Edit...wrong verse...
This message has been edited by Tal, 08-17-2005 09:09 AM

'Now isn't it amazing. I tell you that nobody made a simple toy like that (solar system model) and you don't believe me. Yet you gaze out into the solar System - the intricate marvelous machine that is around you - and you dare say to me that no one made that. I don't believe it'. -Sir Isaac Newton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by ramoss, posted 08-17-2005 8:13 AM ramoss has not replied

  
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