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Author | Topic: oh look - an observed gene duplication.... | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
derwood Member (Idle past 1904 days) Posts: 1457 Joined: |
Allow me to predict any potential attempts at 'refutation':
1. It happened in a lab, so it is really evidence for Design!2. That is not exactly, precisely what I challenged you to present, so it doesn't count. 3. The researchers had evolutionary assumptions, so it is question begging 4. The mice are still mice, so evolution is still a fairy tale. 5. The whole paper likely contains information contraditory to what you see in the abstract, so I cannot comment on this until I get the paper, and I will never try to get the paper. Did I miss any? Emphases and comments in italics mine: **********************************************************************Dev Biol 2002 Sep 1;249(1):96-107 Duplication of the Hoxd11 gene causes alterations in the axial and appendicular skeleton of the mouse. Boulet AM, Capecchi MR. Howard Hughes Medical Institute, Department of Human Genetics, University of Utah, School of Medicine, Salt Lake City, Utah 84112-5331, USA. The Hox genes encode a group of transcription factors essential for proper development of the mouse. Targeted mutation of the Hoxd11 gene causes reduced male fertility, vertebral transformation, carpal bone fusions, and reductions in digit length. A duplication of the Hoxd11 gene was created with the expectation that the consequences of restricted overexpression in the appropriate cellswould provide further insight into the function of the Hoxd11 gene product. Genetic assays demonstrated that two tandem copies of Hoxd11 were functionally indistinguishable from the normal two copies of the gene on separate chromosomes with respect to formation of the axial and appendicular skeleton. Extra copies of Hoxd11 caused an increase in the lengths of some bones of the forelimb autopod and a decrease in the number of lumbar vertebrae. Point 1: 'New information' is NOT required to alter phenotype. One leg knocked out from the YEC information hawks... Further, analysis of the Hoxd11 duplication demonstrated that the Hoxd11 protein can perform some functions supplied by its paralogue Hoxa11. For example, the defects in forelimb bones are corrected when extra copies of Hoxd11 are present in the Hoxa11homozygous mutant background. Point 2: The presence of a duplicate 'fixes' problems caused bya mutated gene. Beneficial in anyone's book. Both legs gone, YEC information hawk goes tumbling down... Thus, it appears that Hoxd11 can quantitatively compensate for the absence of Hoxa11 protein, and therefore Hoxa11 and Hoxd11 are functionally equivalent in the zeugopod. However, extra copies of Hoxd11 did not improve male or female fertility in Hoxa11 mutants. Oops - missed this 'excuse': It isn't all good, so the 'challenge' was not met. Right? Interestingly, the insertion of an additional Hoxd11 locus into the HoxD complex does not appear to affect the expression patterns of the neighboring Hoxd10, -d12, or -d13 genes.****************************************************************** Still waiting for lab reports of creation ex nihilo by the deity depicted in the bible, lest YECism is false...
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Quetzal Member (Idle past 5900 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Yeah, you missed at least one:
6. All of which proves the multipurpose genome (because of the duplications) and falsifies evolutionism.
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derwood Member (Idle past 1904 days) Posts: 1457 Joined: |
quote: Silly, silly me.....
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6503 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
Allow me to predict any potential attempts at 'refutation':
1. It happened in a lab, so it is really evidence for Design! 2. That is not exactly, precisely what I challenged you to present, so it doesn't count. 3. The researchers had evolutionary assumptions, so it is question begging 4. The mice are still mice, so evolution is still a fairy tale. 5. The whole paper likely contains information contraditory to what you see in the abstract, so I cannot comment on this until I get the paper, and I will never try to get the paper. Did I miss any?******************* 6. Williams will say, this is a strawman because clearly if you look at a picture of poodles while playing with a deck of cards you will realize the genetic potential of an ace of spades after a genetic bottleneck while playing keyboards in front of a dead lightbulb and your Ph.D. is from Hasbro from which it can be concluded no information was lost, gained, or maintained 7. Borger will say, the MPG predicted all of this because non-random mutations told me so and I have yet again falsified all biology because I can explain it better than anyone and I don't need to read the paper since it is an evolutionist atheists conspiracy but I will show the evidence for my position in a couple of months even though it should be obvious....but until then I will repeat the same things over and over again because that makes them true
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Quetzal Member (Idle past 5900 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
[This message has been edited by Quetzal, 11-20-2002]
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Fred Williams Member (Idle past 4884 days) Posts: 310 From: Broomfield Joined: |
Dear Mr Tree Rings = Code guy,
Please show me anywhere in the history of the internet where I claimed duplications have not been observed. Since you save all my writings this should be easy. Let me help you. Put all my posts in the same folder. Then do a FIND on duplication. Read them to see if I ever claim duplications haven’t been observed. No luck? Then please dismantle your strawman and return it to the closet.
quote: LOL! So where is the new information?! Keep trying, Dr Tree Rings.
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derwood Member (Idle past 1904 days) Posts: 1457 Joined: |
quote: I never said you did, Moderator 3. Of course, you asked for an 'example' of a gene duplication and subsequent mutation conferring an advantage. I provided one, you tack on the extra criterion about 'observed.' That is the creationist way.[quote]
Snip implicit attemtp to make face-saving accusation by Oil-of-hyssop-is-50%-antibacterial guy.quote: Oh look - yet more additional criteria! Mam and questzal - we all missed the obvious one: 8. No new information by my personal defintion. That is (one of the) the point, totally lost on Mr.SNPs-are-removed-from-phylogentic-analyses. The points are: The gene duplication conferred an advantage ('fixed' problems caused by mutant genes); therefore, it meets your criterion re: advantage Gene duplication - observed - can alter phenotype. "New information required by evolution" mantra rendered moot. It is obvious that a one-trick pony such as yourself would do his darndest to tryt to dodge the issue. But your tactics are transparent. And a bit sad. Not to mention predictable. The creationist Jerry Bergman said it best: "A key to success is knowing what one can speak authoritatively about and knowing where one's limits of knowledge and expertise are. All of us have opinions which lie outside of our area of expertise. Most intelligent people are cognizant of this fact and therefore usually avoid pontificating on areas they know little about." So please Williams, stop the pontification.
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derwood Member (Idle past 1904 days) Posts: 1457 Joined: |
Well, Fred used #2, and we forget this one:
8. Insult, insult, insult to try to divert attention.
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Tranquility Base Inactive Member |
SLPx
I didn't check to see which category my answer comes under but I have spent a lotof time pointing out that we agree with everything you say on alellic copies and changes. We point out that that is not the primary differnce between genomes. It's the banks of new pathways which include new gene families - that's where we disagree with you!
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joz Inactive Member |
Ok lets see now...
(alphabet soup time)... Case one. Two statements: a)Mr Williams is. b)Dr Page is not an idiot. From this we can tell that both Mr W and Dr P exsist and additionslly that Dr P is not an idiot. Case two. Same two statements but the phrase "an idiot" is copied from statement b) and appended to statement a) a)Mr Williams is an idiot. b)Dr Page is not an idiot. From these two statements we can see that both Mr W and Dr P exsist and also that while Dr P is not an idiot Mr W is... Which set of statements do you think contains the most information? [This message has been edited by joz, 11-20-2002]
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peter borger Member (Idle past 7693 days) Posts: 965 From: australia Joined: |
Dear Dr Page,
It was already recognised by Quetzal (although it neither falsifies nor verifies evolution), but thanks for your marvellous example demonstrating the MPG in action. All your points were predicted by the MPG. See my letter #1 mol gen evidence for a MPG thread for these predictions. And that should be expectd from a good scientific theory: it should have predictive power. The multipurpose genome (MPG) hypothesis holds that: 1) DNA sequences within species —-although plastic-- are stable throughout time,2) organisms demonstrate genetic redundancies that reside in the genome without selective constraint, 3) adaptive phenotypes are due to duplication and/or shuffling of preexisting DNA elements —either genes or other non-coding elements-- that affect gene expression, or due to loss of (redundant) genes [=degeneration theory], 4) the function of natural selection is to remove degenerate organisms, and 5) there is/has been creation (=creaton interactions with matter in a morphogenetic field giving rise to genes and genetic programs in preexisting genetic programs). Predictions of the MPG hypothesis:1) predicts that within species we do not see abundant variation with respect to genes, and usually such genetic alterations are neutral or degenerate (although distinct alleles can be expected through the principle of degeneration, which is in effect the action of entropy). It also predicts that all organism --even the simplest-- have an elaborate and accurate mechanism to counteract mutations. 2) predicts that a considerable part of the genes of any organism can be knocked out without being lethal. 3) predicts that adaptive phenotypes of organism do never demonstrate new genes. 4) predicts that organism lacking vital DNA elements are selected against. 5) predicts that there should be organisms that have not undergone genetic changes (yet). Falsification of the MPG hypothesis:The concept will be falsified by the observation of the evolution of new genes unrelated to preexisting genes. It will take a while before you will recognise that what you call evolution is 'differential gene expression', usually due to involvement of regulatory mechanism. I already recognised it, since I am in the field of gene regulation, and tried to share this discovery with you. You still are a bit reluctant, but here Dr PAge provides more clearcut evidence that GENE EXPRESSION DOES THE TRICK. Ever expected that? I didn't, till recently. I think Mammuthus will also like this example, since he likes to have proof for the MPG. Best wishes,Peter [This message has been edited by peter borger, 11-20-2002]
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monkenstick Inactive Member |
borger,if you're referring to regulatory evolution, its not a new idea - its also entirely consistent with NDT
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6503 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
Well SLPx...I would say this is number 7 from my addendum to your list
The multipurpose genome (MPG) hypothesis holds that: M: Already wrong.....define the "purpose of the genome"...or by MPG do you mean miles per gallon 1) DNA sequences within species —-although plastic-- are stable throughout time, M: Which says absolutely nothing....and ignores hypervariable sequences 2) organisms demonstrate genetic redundancies that reside in the genome without selective constraint, M: neutral evolution does to....duh 3) adaptive phenotypes are due to duplication and/or shuffling of preexisting DNA elements —either genes or other non-coding elements-- that affect gene expression, or due to loss of (redundant) genes [=degeneration theory], M: Falsified by point and small and large scale deletion event mutations that also alter phenotype. 4) the function of natural selection is to remove degenerate organisms, and M: Then why is Williams still around? ...define degenerate 5) there is/has been creation (=creaton interactions with matter in a morphogenetic field giving rise to genes and genetic programs in preexisting genetic programs). M: So much for your proving anything...without having a loaded crack pipe in your mouth and deeply inhaling...where can the rest of us see morphogenetic fields or creatons? Predictions of the MPG hypothesis:1) predicts that within species we do not see abundant variation with respect to genes, and usually such genetic alterations are neutral or degenerate (although distinct alleles can be expected through the principle of degeneration, which is in effect the action of entropy). It also predicts that all organism --even the simplest-- have an elaborate and accurate mechanism to counteract mutations. M: This hardly follows from anything in the above tenets you posted...in addition, you have previously claimed that all identity by descent is an illusion so there can be no species...each genome has to be an entity in iteself indepenedent of all others...which falsifies you miles per gallon theory 2) predicts that a considerable part of the genes of any organism can be knocked out without being lethal. M: And when you put them back in the wild, do thay do better, worse, the same as organisms with the genes? 3) predicts that adaptive phenotypes of organism do never demonstrate new genes. Falsified..even in primates...syscytin...you are the weakest link..goodbye 4) predicts that organism lacking vital DNA elements are selected against. M: What is a "vital" element? Or do you mean that when an organism has disruption of say the developmental pathway that leads to heart development this is selected against? Wow..what a novel discovery... 5) predicts that there should be organisms that have not undergone genetic changes (yet). M: I have not changed genetically in 34 years...wow! Falsification of the MPG hypothesis:The concept will be falsified by the observation of the evolution of new genes unrelated to preexisting genes. M: And by all the rest of the data against almost every one of the hypothesis put forward.. PB:It will take a while before you will recognise that what you call evolution is 'differential gene expression', usually due to involvement of regulatory mechanism. I already recognised it, since I am in the field of gene regulation, and tried to share this discovery with you. You still are a bit reluctant, but here Dr PAge provides more clearcut evidence that GENE EXPRESSION DOES THE TRICK. Ever expected that? I didn't, till recently. M: I knew that drugs were freely available in the Netherlands but really Peter..you need to cut back. PB:I think Mammuthus will also like this example, since he likes to have proof for the MPG. M: Then the other half of your post where you actually provide this "proof" must have been cut off from your message..care to re-post it? [This message has been edited by Mammuthus, 11-21-2002]
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6503 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
quote: ********************* LOL!!!
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Mammuthus Member (Idle past 6503 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: |
quote: forgot another one... 9. To busy to answer the question even though it is so easy to...9b. Will post the obvious answer to the questions in a couple of months (since hopefully you will all have forgotten that I said I would)...when asked again I will say I will post the answer in a couple of months (since...etc etc etc.
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