|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total) |
| |
popoi | |
Total: 916,387 Year: 3,644/9,624 Month: 515/974 Week: 128/276 Day: 2/23 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: My problem with evolution | |||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: Is it? That is an interesting way to look at a collection of electrical impulses. I'd be interested if you expand on this. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: So thoughts are not physical then? Now we are getting somewhere. Thoughts are what, exactly? ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: I'm sorry, the dogmatism of this just stopped me in my tracks. Very amusing.
quote: And here you crash and burn, unless you can support this statement. If your shole case is that there seems to be amental world, then your case is pretty insubstantial.
quote: Someone has already posed the question of whether Commander Data could exist. You agreed that it is possible, but we don't know for sure. This undercuts your statement above, which you need to be true-- absolutely. Modern computers are nowhere near as complex as a brain, and I suspect brains run on software not yet imagined for man-made machines.
quote: You mean the part about not being able to know both the position and the momentum of a particle? I don't see what this has to do with mind.
quote: What you can concieve isn't all that relevant, thankfully. Besides which, the brain doesn't work one impulse at a time. It functions in patterns of impulses. I think neuro-science has proven that much about the brain.
quote: What?????
quote: And light bulbs are damn similar to brains and to computers????? ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: You've introduced another term which now needs clarification. Really, this is starting to remind me of the "do chimps have language debates" Essentially, everytime a chimp meets a criteria for language, another researcher redefines the criteria.
quote: Memories have topics, yet are not thoughts according to you. Isn't that what you said earlier? It looks like it is time for more clarification.
quote: This is essentially assuming what you wish to prove. If thoughts are artifacts of the brain, this is all false. No fair assuming what you wish to prove.
quote: Again, assumming what you wish to prove.
quote: Feelings seem pretty much on par with thoughts to me. How are they different in essense?
quote: I think you need to read up on animal cognition research.
quote: Is that so? Why? ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: Logically, it is a fallacy called a false dichotomy. because there are other options.
quote: This is the premise to which I object. Repeating it does nothing for your case.
quote: You have that reality is: 1)Mental2)Physical 3)Both-- duality There is also: 4)Neithera)Reality is inaccessible -- Kant for ex. b)There is no mind and no physical, but solely raw perception -- David Hume for ex. 5)Both but not a duality but positions on a continuum -- that is, the two are essentially the same but fit the description of neither mental nor physical. 6)Both but not a duality but two of a plurality -- spirit, mind, body for example. 7)And there is always something-we-ain't-thought-of-yet, at least potentially. This little catch screws up any argument that requires absolutes and your argument seem to require them. I could find many other alternatives by analyzing your three options. We'd have to seperate any mutually exclusive definitions of 'mind' for example. The same for physical. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com [This message has been edited by John, 11-20-2002]
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: I don't think you've yet defined 'thoughts' and 'physical qualities'.
quote: Never trust the obvious.
quote: Actually what I think is... well, what I propose propose for consideration is that thoughts are on par with perceptions. What physical qualities do they have? What quality does red have? Redness? Hardly says anthing. We don't actually see light particles. What we see, what we call perception has been translated by numerous physical processes and into electrical impulses in the brain. This can be tracked, albeit very poorly. Thoughts are those same types of electrical impulses. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: ok (?) ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: Then you haven't read Hume or Kant, or you are using your own definitions of the terms. I suspect that both are true.
quote: Such as? Hume thought there was no evidence for either mind or matter. Bishop Berkeley felt that mind was evident but not the physical.
quote: Oh. I see. Number six isn't a speculation about a state. It is there to point out that unless you are omniscient you can't very well make statements involving universal absolutes.
quote: Wow, well that is quite a disclaimer. Who decides what is a rational idea? Who decides what is reasonable evidence? It seems that you are just making assertions without defending them. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: Why? So far, all you've done is assert this premise. Everything we see, feel, and know, for Kant, is a mental construct-- reality filtered through the mind. But reality itself is inaccessable. We have no information about it at all, so how is it that you can claim it must be one or the other of your assumptions? It makes no sense. It is a plain and simple gross over-generealization-- a fallacy. You've not addressed Hume. And lets add Plato just for fun. Platonic forms do not fit any difinitions you've given of either physical or mental phenomenon.
quote: I don't have to show you something. Your argument makes a bold statement about what is or is not possible. All I have to do to break it is come up with another possibility, which I have done. I have, in fact, introduced the ideas of several important philosophers for this purpose. It then falls to you to analyze and eliminate those possibilities, which you have not done, but merely asserted an opinion without analysis. Secondly, show me 'mind.' Show me 'matter' for that matter. Show me 'thought itself' You make demands which reflected back towards your arguments will cause trouble. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: Ok robinrohan, What exactly is your position? Initially, you listed three options: mental, physical, and dualistic. You then criticised two of those: physical and dualistic. And mentioned that quantum physics had struck a blow for the mental. This led me to believe that you believe mind to be primary. Now I find that you are arguing for dualism, which you have already criticised? ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: Weird isn't it? ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by robinrohan:
[B]Language, as I define it, is the ability to create sentences. If you are able to take verbs and nouns and recombine them in ways you have not heard before, you have language.[/quote] [/b] quote: I communicate in language, but don't think in it. I think, in fact that language shackles thought, slows it down. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: Care to say what mind is if its not physical? You are missing the point I'm trying to make. All that I can see you doing is asserting and reasserting your premises without defending them. It is getting a bit silly. Somewhere along the line you have decided that everything in mind, matter, or both and you are grossly glossing over anything that gets in the way. The Egyptians subdivided the what you'd call mind into several components, for example.
quote: ... that we can't know reality actually. This is Kant. For Kant, what we perceive is reality filtered through mind. Concerning reality itself we have no information.
quote: Which is not an option for what reasons? Seems to me that you just don't like the idea.
quote: All life capable of space flight is human. True or false? ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: Funny. I have not offered Kant's phenomena as an alternative. I offered Kant's noumena as such alternative. Kant doesn't divide between mental and physical but between phenomena and noumena. The former being mental object-ish, the latter being unknown. What we consider physical is a CONSTRUCT of the mind-- ie, it is phenomena. This is not the same division you have made between physical and mental.
quote: I haven't offered any conditions meeting your preconcieved idea of what reality ought to be. This is different from not offering any different condition of reality. Virtually every major philosopher has a different conception of the conditions of reality. This is why these people have come to be considered major philosphers, imho.
quote: That you wish to press things into one of three categories is precisely my objection. Lets talk about atoms. The word first appeared among the Classic Greek philosphers. Is this the same as what is meant today? Nope. Not even close. Yet they both discuss the physical so they must be variations of the same thing? Nope. They are radically different concepts. Lumping them together does no justice to either. To the Greeks the atom was solid, an indivisible thing. Today, atoms are not solid at all but energy. Solidity is a the illusion produced by the interaction of electromagnetic forces. Now take a peek at Berkeley's idealism, and compare it to Leibniz, also classed an idealist by some. The two concepts are as further apart than your mental and physical. Yet you class them the same? That's silly. Now take Hume. Hume did the blatantly obvious and looked around. What he saw was perception. What he did not see was a 'physical'. Think about a dream. When you dream, you see things but these things are not physical things. Still, they are perceptions-- ie, colors, shapes, textures, whatever. This is what Hume saw when awake as well, and in fact, what I see. Hume, likewise, could find no causality. In fact, he found not much at all. Now for mind, look for it. More perceptions. Words that we call thoughts, images that we call memory, but no observer-- no mind. There must be something watching the show right? Well, if there is we ought to be able to find it. Hume could not. To my knowledge, there is no way out of this radical empiricism. There is no way to bootstrap yourself to any higher understanding. You have to assume your way out of it. (Kant's Prolegomena was an attempt to escape Hume's empiricism. Of course, he did so by assuming some things) Platonic forms? From my Encyclopedia of Philosphy: "Neither a Platonic Form nor a shape is a mental entity." I don't believe that you will argue that a Form is a physical entity, and so therefore the Form is an option to your physical and mental. ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: How about, that is all very nice but it isn't an argument? How about, repetition isn't convincing? How about, I quote from the EoP that Platonic Forms are not mental constructs and in the very next post you class Plato as an idealist? How about, you are equivocating on your terms, especially those of idealism and materialism-- which have had many incarnations-- and this I suspect is why you are mixing and matching radically different concepts? How about, you have ignored everything I have said about Hume? How about, you have ignored everything I have said about Kant? How about, you have ignored what I have said about Plato? How about, you didn't respond to my points concerning the idea of atoms? How about, you are lumping concepts into such broad classes that the division is meaningless? ------------------http://www.hells-handmaiden.com
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024