Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,387 Year: 3,644/9,624 Month: 515/974 Week: 128/276 Day: 2/23 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Washington Post reports witchhunt by evolutionists.
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4919 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 16 of 45 (235026)
08-20-2005 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by AdminNosy
08-20-2005 3:58 PM


Re: Scope of Journal
I think the guy answers fairly well for himself.
According to the official description of the Proceedings published in each issue, the journal "contains papers bearing on systematics in the biological sciences (botany, zoology, and paleontology)." The journal has published in areas such as comparative cytogenetics, phylogenetic hypotheses and classifications, developmental studies, and reviews of faunal groups. In addition, evolutionary scenarios are frequently presented at the end of basic systematic studies. Even a casual survey of papers published in the Proceedings and the occasional Bulletin of the Biological Society of Washington will reveal many titles in such areas:
Rickart, E. A. 2003. Chromosomes of Philippine mammals (Insectivora, Dermoptera, Primates, Rodentia, Carnivora). Proc. Biol. Soc. Wash. 116(3): 699-709.
Panero, J. and V. A. Funk. 2002. Toward a phylogenetic subfamilial classification for the Compositae (Asteraceae). Proc. Biol. Soc. Wash. 115(4): 909-922.
Pohle, G. and F. Marques. 2000. Larval stages of Paradasygyius depressus (Bell, 1835) (Crustacea: Decapoda: Brachyura: Majidae) and a phylogenetic hypothesis for 21 genera of Majidae. Proc. Biol. Soc. Wash. 113: 739-760.
Newman, W. A. 1985. The abyssal hydrothermal vent invertebrate fauna: a glimpse of antiquity? Bull. Biol. Soc. Wash. 6: 231242.
Brusca, R. C. and B. R. Wallerstein. 1979B. The marine isopod crustaceans of the Gulf of California. II. Idoteidae. New genus, new species, new records, and comments on the morphology, taxonomy and evolution within the family. Proc. Biol. Soc. Wash. 92(2): 253-271.
Given more time for research (which I won't put in to address this basically unfair complaint), I could certainly find additional and even broader papers. Thus, the topic of Meyer's paper was within the scope of the journal.
Forbidden!
He also makes a good case it was properly peer-reviewed.
Nevertheless, recognizing the potentially controversial nature of the paper, I consulted with a colleague about whether it should be published. This person is a scientist at the National Museum of Natural History, a member of the Council, and someone whose judgment I respected. I thought it was important to double-check my view as to the wisdom of publishing the Meyer paper. We discussed the Meyer paper during at least three meetings, including one soon after the receipt of the paper, before it was sent out for review.
After the initial positive conversation with my Council member colleague, I sent the paper out for review to four experts. Three reviewers responded and were willing to review the paper; all are experts in relevant aspects of evolutionary and molecular biology and hold full-time faculty positions in major research institutions, one at an Ivy League university, another at a major North American public university, a third on a well-known overseas research faculty. There was substantial feedback from reviewers to the author, resulting in significant changes to the paper. The reviewers did not necessarily agree with Dr. Meyer's arguments or his conclusion but all found the paper meritorious and concluded that it warranted publication. The reviewers felt that the issues raised by Meyer were worthy of scientific debate. I too disagreed with many aspects of the Meyer paper but I agreed with their overall assessment and accepted the paper for publication. Thus, four well-qualified biologists with five PhDs in relevant disciplines were of the professional opinion that the paper was worthy of publication.
From original receipt to publication the processing, reviewing, revising, and editing of the Meyer paper took about six months. (By contrast, I once helped colleagues at the Museum rush out a paper on a topic upon which they feared that others were about to preempt them in about four weeks from receipt of the paper to publication.) Even after the paper was completely finished, due to other more pressing matters it sat on my desk for more than two weeks before I finally made time to send it to the printer. Thus, any allegations that I somehow rushed the publication process are patently false.
Forbidden!
It was peer-reviewed, and it dealt with the concept of systematics in using forensics analysis to detect design, something fully in the range of other papers published in the journal and the stated topics of the journal.
This message has been edited by randman, 08-20-2005 04:32 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by AdminNosy, posted 08-20-2005 3:58 PM AdminNosy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by crashfrog, posted 08-20-2005 4:27 PM randman has replied
 Message 23 by Percy, posted 08-20-2005 7:07 PM randman has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 17 of 45 (235027)
08-20-2005 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by randman
08-20-2005 3:54 PM


Re: Check prior thread?
Crash, the Washington Post is not conservative, not at all. It is "mainstream liberal"
I'm sorry, but you're mistaken. Just because the Post is mainstream doesn't make it liberal. The Post's editorial stance is largely very conservative.
I'm pretty sure that you're thinking of the New York Times, well-renown as the arch-liberal newspaper.
(Crash looks some stuff up)
Oh, wait, no, it's me. I was thinking of the Washington Times as the conservative paper. While the Post isn't as liberal as other newspapers, and of course claims political neutrality, it's isn't accurate for me to have described it as conservative. I apologize.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by randman, posted 08-20-2005 3:54 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by randman, posted 08-20-2005 4:46 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 18 of 45 (235028)
08-20-2005 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by randman
08-20-2005 4:23 PM


Re: Scope of Journal
He also makes a good case it was properly peer-reviewed.
Well, no, he doesn't. If he picked his reviewers then it wasn't properly peer-reviewed, by definition.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by randman, posted 08-20-2005 4:23 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by randman, posted 08-20-2005 4:47 PM crashfrog has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4919 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 19 of 45 (235031)
08-20-2005 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by crashfrog
08-20-2005 4:25 PM


Re: Check prior thread?
Crash, I appreciate your acknolwedgement of your confusing the Wash Post with the Wash Times. However, the Washington Post and NYTs are both liberal.
When people use the term, right or wrong, the liberal media, they are predominantly referring to the NYTs, the Washington Post, ABC, CBS, NBC, and CNN.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by crashfrog, posted 08-20-2005 4:25 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4919 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 20 of 45 (235032)
08-20-2005 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by crashfrog
08-20-2005 4:27 PM


Re: Scope of Journal
He followed their standard practice. Now, it may be the peer-review process as a whole is a little sloppy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by crashfrog, posted 08-20-2005 4:27 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by crashfrog, posted 08-20-2005 7:04 PM randman has not replied
 Message 43 by deerbreh, posted 08-23-2005 5:12 PM randman has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22479
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 21 of 45 (235059)
08-20-2005 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by randman
08-20-2005 3:50 PM


Re: Check prior thread?
randman writes:
Percey, I hear your spin. Try to look at this from a more objective perspective, as someone would if they didn't have a dog in this fight.
If the definition of someone with an objective perspective is someone who doesn't "have a dog in this fight", then you can't offer your perspective as something objective, can you. Nevertheless, let's examine what you wrote.
First off, he sent the paper to 3 scientists who thought the topic should be aired.
The scientists had to have been handpicked. Three randomly chosen biologists would not approve the paper. Were this a realistic possibility it would mean that so many scientists think ID worthy of consideration that we wouldn't be having this discussion and Sternberg's career wouldn't be in ruins.
Second, it is within the scope of the journal. Of course, the journal had not published an ID paper, but at the same time, arguing that because it is ID, it is a priori not within the scope of the journal is, imo, way out of bounds.
First, if you read my message, then you know I didn't say it was a priori outside the scope of the journal because it is ID.
Second, did you read the message I referred you to (Message 177)? It would appear not, because had you read it you would know that the scope of the BSOW proceedings is taxonomy. ID does not fall within the realm of taxonomy.
Third, Sternberg himself concedes that the paper fell outside the scope of the journal. He was quoted saying as much in the Post article, I provided the quote in my message, and here it is again:
Washington Post writes:
Sternberg harbored his own doubts about Darwinian theory. He also acknowledged that this journal had not published such papers in the past and that he wanted to stir the scientific pot.
You need to begin reading what people actually write, and you need to begin supporting your assertions with evidence and rational argument.
These little asides in my messages are not inconsequential. I'm engaging with you to give you the opportunity to show you can engage in constructive dialog. I suspect Ned is doing the same thing. Every once in a while I feel I detect some improvement, but then you go right back to ignoring arguments, making bald assertions and casting constant aspersions at the other side (e.g., "got their panties in a wad" and so forth).
I suggest you begin dealing with what people actually say instead of constantly giving voice to the darker side of your feelings. Just stick to the facts and you'll do fine. Begin quoting what people say, and then stick strictly to addressing what appears in the quote.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by randman, posted 08-20-2005 3:50 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by randman, posted 08-20-2005 7:41 PM Percy has not replied
 Message 26 by Chiroptera, posted 08-20-2005 7:53 PM Percy has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 22 of 45 (235061)
08-20-2005 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by randman
08-20-2005 4:47 PM


Re: Scope of Journal
He followed their standard practice.
Can you substantiate that hand-picking the review jury is this journal's standard practice?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by randman, posted 08-20-2005 4:47 PM randman has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22479
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 23 of 45 (235063)
08-20-2005 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by randman
08-20-2005 4:23 PM


Re: Scope of Journal
I addressed Sternberg's claim that the paper was within the journals scope in the aforementioned message, which I mention again: Message 177
Also, it is clear from Sternberg's own comments in the Post that he is no longer arguing that the paper was within the scope of the BSOW Proceedings:
Washington Post writes:
Sternberg harbored his own doubts about Darwinian theory. He also acknowledged that this journal had not published such papers in the past and that he wanted to stir the scientific pot.
Sternberg evidently hasn't updated his website since last September, but at least he now recognizes that arguing that the Meyer paper was in the Proceedings scope is a non-starter.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by randman, posted 08-20-2005 4:23 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by randman, posted 08-20-2005 7:27 PM Percy has replied
 Message 27 by randman, posted 08-20-2005 7:57 PM Percy has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4919 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 24 of 45 (235068)
08-20-2005 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Percy
08-20-2005 7:07 PM


Re: Scope of Journal
Percy, he is not changing his story as you surmise. Of course, they have no published something so controversial and no ID papers, but they have published in the area of systematics, and so it is both within the scope of the journal and something they had not published before.
In fact, journals are to be commended, are they not, for publishing ideas in the general field, but in the specifics, have not been published before?
Right?
Quit spinning and just look at what the guy is saying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Percy, posted 08-20-2005 7:07 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Percy, posted 08-20-2005 8:41 PM randman has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4919 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 25 of 45 (235070)
08-20-2005 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Percy
08-20-2005 6:47 PM


Re: Check prior thread?
The scientists had to have been handpicked. Three randomly chosen biologists would not approve the paper. Were this a realistic possibility it would mean that so many scientists think ID worthy of consideration that we wouldn't be having this discussion and Sternberg's career wouldn't be in ruins.
I strongly disagree. When you have a group committed to ideological purity, as evolutionists are imo, at least a very influential group, then what occurs is you often have a sort of silent, underground dissent that sometimes dares to voice itself openly, but with the "heretic" stomped on as harshly as possible as a warning to the rest. That's how the Roman Catholic heirarchy acted, and imo, with less power of course, that's how the evolutionist heirarchy are acting as well.
You can dismiss that as absurd, but there's a reason the Washington Post, no friend to conservatives and creationists, paints the evo powers that be in such a bad light.
That's how the rest of the nation that is paying attention to this stuff is seeing the debate shape up. They see a basic unfairness and discrimination of a type exactly the opposite of the open-minded, scientific values evolutionists claim to espouse.
It's a free country and you can think my ideas here are wacko, but when the Washington Post seems to agree with randman, you know a bridge of thought has been crossed and that probably a vast majority of Americans agree on this issue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Percy, posted 08-20-2005 6:47 PM Percy has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 45 (235073)
08-20-2005 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Percy
08-20-2005 6:47 PM


Oh no!
quote:
The scientists had to have been handpicked. Three randomly chosen biologists would not approve the paper. Were this a realistic possibility it would mean that so many scientists think ID worthy of consideration that we wouldn't be having this discussion and Sternberg's career wouldn't be in ruins.
Uh oh. You're trying to make a statistical argument with someone who believes that we should see a complete fossil record of whale evolution, including speciation events.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Percy, posted 08-20-2005 6:47 PM Percy has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4919 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 27 of 45 (235075)
08-20-2005 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Percy
08-20-2005 7:07 PM


Re: Scope of Journal
Summarizing this list, there is one non-taxonomic title in 2003, one in 2002, one in 2000, one in 1985, and one in 1979.
So non-taxonomic titles were in fact common? You verify that from time to time, the journal published non-taxonomic papers.
How can you then justify your claim that the paper is outside of the journals' scope based on primarily publishing taxonomic literature?
This means that 40% of all non-taxonomic articles in the BSW Proceedings have come under Sternberg's watch. Before Sternberg, non-taxonomic articles appeared at the rate of one every six years or so. After Sternberg became editor the rate went up to one per year, six times higher.
Wow. More data for my case. So they knew full well as an editor that he was publishing more papers outside of just strict taxonomy, and they kept him on as editor.
Nothing more needs to be said. This proves 100% that the editor is right; that he was just doing business as usual. If they had a problem, as they claim, with non-taxonomic articles, they could have and would have removed him years ago or instructed that no such articles be submitted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Percy, posted 08-20-2005 7:07 PM Percy has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22479
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 28 of 45 (235089)
08-20-2005 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by randman
08-20-2005 7:27 PM


Re: Scope of Journal
randman writes:
Quit spinning and just look at what the guy is saying.
What makes you think it makes sense for a participant in a discussion to decide who is objective and who is putting a spin on things? It comes as no surprise that such persons like yourself who set themselves up as the judge of objectivity invariably conclude that it's the other guy who's biased. The reason your constant charges of bias are rarely answered by charges of your own bias is that others recognize the fallacy in which you constantly engage. I wish you would stop. It is a constant distraction and irritant.
If you want to believe that Meyer's paper is a good fit for a taxonomy journal, then I can tell it is beyond my ability to convince you otherwise. In my view, if Meyer's paper belongs in the BSOW Proceedings, then there is just about no journal in the field of biology that it doesn't belong in. But that's obviously ridiculous. There are many fields of biology, and each field is serviced by one or a few journals.
The BSOW journal is devoted primarily to describing species in great detail as a means toward more accurate classification. That's what taxonomy and systematics is. What is it about ID that leads you to conclude it belongs in the taxonomy sub-specialty of biology? Doesn't ID, with all its focus on irreducible complexity, specified complexity, microbiological structures and numerical methods belong in other much more appropriate journals? Such as the ones that Michael Behe, one of the first to advocate ID, publishes in? Like genetics journals and microbiology journals and evolutionary history journals and information theory journals and so forth?
The reason Meyer's paper was submitted to the BSOW Proceedings is because Sternberg, the editor, was a friend of ID, and not because it was the appropriate journal to submit it to. The paper is an embarrassment, not because it is ID, but because it is such bad science, and it cost Sternberg his reputation because he let his judgment become seriously clouded.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by randman, posted 08-20-2005 7:27 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by randman, posted 08-20-2005 9:04 PM Percy has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4919 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 29 of 45 (235098)
08-20-2005 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Percy
08-20-2005 8:41 PM


Re: Scope of Journal
Editing to add quotes for Percy.
It comes as no surprise that such persons like yourself who set themselves up as the judge of objectivity invariably conclude that it's the other guy who's biased.
I am not claiming not have a bias, although I do try to be objective, but the point seems to have sailed right past you that generally the Washington Post's bias and mine are on opposite sides of the fence. The fact they published this article indicates that perhaps my take on this is shared by non-Iders and most likely by many people that accept ToE but think the way evos have acted over this incident and issue is atrocious.
What is it about ID that leads you to conclude it belongs in the taxonomy sub-specialty of biology?
On the subject of the journals stated scope of purview, it appears deductions from and theories about mechanics involved are fair game, and that the ID paper is indeed stating something about the nature of how certain traits arise and using a forensic argument to introduce that concept.
I can see we will just have to amicably disagree here, but I would suggest rather than insisting I am the one being unreasonable, you would at least give some thought to why even an anti-Bush administration and liberal paper would print an article critical of the evolutionist establishment right after Bush publicly announced ID should be on the table as far as education.
It's not that they agree with Bush. It's that the public had no idea that creationist and ID criticism was correct in slamming mainstream evos for being biased, "policized" in the sense of close-minded adherence to ideology, etc,...and I suspect the tide is beginning to turn where many people are concerned that such a group that should ostensibly represent open-minded search for truth would be so unreasonable and act so atrociously.
Keep in mind the Smithsonian is a place where millions of families visit each year. Americans are thus rightly concerned about the quality of the character or lack thereof running this institution.
That's why it's in the news.
This message has been edited by randman, 08-21-2005 01:14 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Percy, posted 08-20-2005 8:41 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Percy, posted 08-21-2005 7:38 AM randman has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5840 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 30 of 45 (235193)
08-21-2005 4:23 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by randman
08-20-2005 3:58 PM


Re: a fair shake is a jerky thing to do
Post article makes evos look bad here is not because they are inclined towards ID, but because the evo community has acted shamefully, and the rest of the nation sees it, but somehow you guys don't.
My reply was meant to suggest that no one came away clean. Though there are no conspiratorial "sides" either.
One man took advantage of his position to do something he shouldn't have, just in order to create a controversy because he believes that's what creates progress in science... guess he was really way out being editor of a journal that was known not to be that way.
Then people overreacted to his actions, including some knee jerk assumptions about him.
Evos don't look bad, some specific people do, including the editor. And I might repeat that ID looks all the worse as the editor pretty clearly dismisses it himself, other than to give rise to questions.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by randman, posted 08-20-2005 3:58 PM randman has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024