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Author Topic:   Washington Post reports witchhunt by evolutionists.
randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 1 of 45 (234871)
08-19-2005 2:53 PM


Many have questioned why IDers don't publish more in evolution dominated journals and have ridiculed concerns of persecution.
I suggest those evos here making those claims read the following article.
Within hours of publication, senior scientists at the Smithsonian Institution -- which has helped fund and run the journal -- lashed out at Sternberg as a shoddy scientist and a closet Bible thumper.
"They were saying I accepted money under the table, that I was a crypto-priest, that I was a sleeper cell operative for the creationists," said Steinberg, 42 , who is a Smithsonian research associate. "I was basically run out of there."
An independent agency has come to the same conclusion, accusing top scientists at the Smithsonian's National Museum of Natural History of retaliating against Sternberg by investigating his religion and smearing him as a "creationist."
The U.S. Office of Special Counsel, which was established to protect federal employees from reprisals, examined e-mail traffic from these scientists and noted that "retaliation came in many forms . . . misinformation was disseminated through the Smithsonian Institution and to outside sources. The allegations against you were later determined to be false."
"The rumor mill became so infected," James McVay, the principal legal adviser in the Office of Special Counsel, wrote to Sternberg, "that one of your colleagues had to circulate [your rsum] simply to dispel the rumor that you were not a scientist."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.../08/18/AR2005081801680.html
The sheer hysteria of the mainstream scientific establishment in the Smithsonian towards the audacity to dare publish an ID paper is a demonstration of the lack of objectivity within evolutionism that I have been talking about.
This message has been edited by randman, 08-19-2005 02:59 PM

Replies to this message:
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randman 
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Posts: 6367
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Message 3 of 45 (234954)
08-19-2005 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminAsgara
08-19-2005 3:19 PM


Re: Check prior thread?
Well, it seems there is now been more investigations into the truth of what happened and both sides are getting out, and a more educated discussion can take place about the reaction to the paper.
I am not so much interested in the paper itself, although I have read it, but in the reaction, and specifically it seems that the editor has to some degree been vindicated. He did share the article with others, although very weak as far as peer-review, but in keeping with previous articles by that particular journal.
He has been false accussed, both as a scientist and a person, and was called a creationist when that is clearly not the case.
I think looking at the reactions within the evo establishment tells us a lot about how things really are, and how close-minded this group is to even considering ID at all in any fashion, and how willing they are to go to great legths to try to ruin the careers and lives of anyone willing to break rank and at least give ID a fair hearing.

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 Message 5 by crashfrog, posted 08-19-2005 10:41 PM randman has replied
 Message 9 by Percy, posted 08-20-2005 8:12 AM randman has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 6 of 45 (234965)
08-19-2005 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by crashfrog
08-19-2005 10:41 PM


Re: Check prior thread?
That's not what the Wsshington Post says happened. Are they part of the Creationist conspiracy as well.
Heck, they barred the editor from even attending a function because the evos were so riled up they didn't think they could keep order.
From an objective perspective, the evos in this story look like religious fanatics or something.

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 8 of 45 (234973)
08-20-2005 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by crashfrog
08-19-2005 11:32 PM


Re: Check prior thread?
The Washington Post? They're part of the "right-wing conspiracy", yes.
So the liberal paper, the Washington Post, is part of the right wing conspiracy, eh?
You're farther out there than I first realized, crash. Democratic Underground partisan, Marxist, or what?
You never answered my question, RM. If ID has such merit, why do it's proponents, like you, have to advance their goals through half-truths, dishonesty, and flim-flam?
Some questions should not be dignified with a response. I apologize therefore to any lurkers out there for commenting at all.

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 Message 7 by crashfrog, posted 08-19-2005 11:32 PM crashfrog has replied

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 12 of 45 (235019)
08-20-2005 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Percy
08-20-2005 8:12 AM


Re: Check prior thread?
Percey, I hear you're spin. Try to look at this from a more objective perspective, as someone would if they didn't have a dog in this fight.
First off, he sent the paper to 3 scientists who thought the topic should be aired.
Second, it is within the scope of the journal. Of course, the journal had not published an ID paper, but at the same time, arguing that because it is ID, it is a priori not within the scope of the journal is, imo, way out of bounds.
Third, I've read the paper, the rebuttals and the rebuttals of the rebuttal. It is not weak science as you claim. Only an evolutionist totally biased against the idea would say that.
It appears to me the real issue is that evos liked to tout the fact that no ID papers had been published in their journals and got their panties in a wad over the fact someone dared do it, and they made sure it would never happen again, if they can help it, by maliciously ruining the career of the editor who published the material, making all sorts of false claims against him.
The Washington Post is not some sort of creationist newspaper. They are not out there promoting creationism or ID. They wrote an article that paints the evolutionist community in a very, very bad light because, well, that's the way it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Percy, posted 08-20-2005 8:12 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by AdminNosy, posted 08-20-2005 3:58 PM randman has replied
 Message 21 by Percy, posted 08-20-2005 6:47 PM randman has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 13 of 45 (235020)
08-20-2005 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by crashfrog
08-20-2005 8:47 AM


Re: Check prior thread?
Crash, the Washington Post is not conservative, not at all. It is "mainstream liberal", totally supportive of the democratic party even when it can be.
Now, being "liberal" does not mean it is far left and may be too mainstream than some hard-core progressives who are anti-globalism for instance, but you gotta remember this is the paper that brought Nixon down, that endorsed Kerry and usually endorses democrats.
But calling the Washington Post conservative is like calling Rush Limbaugh a fan of Bill Clinton.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 15 of 45 (235022)
08-20-2005 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Silent H
08-20-2005 8:31 AM


a fair shake is a jerky thing to do
No. He published something controversial, and you think that is wrong?
Says it all right there. So as long as evos don't like it, it won't get published, and if it does, those that publish it will suffer the consequences.
You guys gotta realize that the reason the Washington Post article makes evos look bad here is not because they are inclined towards ID, but because the evo community has acted shamefully, and the rest of the nation sees it, but somehow you guys don't.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 16 of 45 (235026)
08-20-2005 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by AdminNosy
08-20-2005 3:58 PM


Re: Scope of Journal
I think the guy answers fairly well for himself.
According to the official description of the Proceedings published in each issue, the journal "contains papers bearing on systematics in the biological sciences (botany, zoology, and paleontology)." The journal has published in areas such as comparative cytogenetics, phylogenetic hypotheses and classifications, developmental studies, and reviews of faunal groups. In addition, evolutionary scenarios are frequently presented at the end of basic systematic studies. Even a casual survey of papers published in the Proceedings and the occasional Bulletin of the Biological Society of Washington will reveal many titles in such areas:
Rickart, E. A. 2003. Chromosomes of Philippine mammals (Insectivora, Dermoptera, Primates, Rodentia, Carnivora). Proc. Biol. Soc. Wash. 116(3): 699-709.
Panero, J. and V. A. Funk. 2002. Toward a phylogenetic subfamilial classification for the Compositae (Asteraceae). Proc. Biol. Soc. Wash. 115(4): 909-922.
Pohle, G. and F. Marques. 2000. Larval stages of Paradasygyius depressus (Bell, 1835) (Crustacea: Decapoda: Brachyura: Majidae) and a phylogenetic hypothesis for 21 genera of Majidae. Proc. Biol. Soc. Wash. 113: 739-760.
Newman, W. A. 1985. The abyssal hydrothermal vent invertebrate fauna: a glimpse of antiquity? Bull. Biol. Soc. Wash. 6: 231242.
Brusca, R. C. and B. R. Wallerstein. 1979B. The marine isopod crustaceans of the Gulf of California. II. Idoteidae. New genus, new species, new records, and comments on the morphology, taxonomy and evolution within the family. Proc. Biol. Soc. Wash. 92(2): 253-271.
Given more time for research (which I won't put in to address this basically unfair complaint), I could certainly find additional and even broader papers. Thus, the topic of Meyer's paper was within the scope of the journal.
Forbidden!
He also makes a good case it was properly peer-reviewed.
Nevertheless, recognizing the potentially controversial nature of the paper, I consulted with a colleague about whether it should be published. This person is a scientist at the National Museum of Natural History, a member of the Council, and someone whose judgment I respected. I thought it was important to double-check my view as to the wisdom of publishing the Meyer paper. We discussed the Meyer paper during at least three meetings, including one soon after the receipt of the paper, before it was sent out for review.
After the initial positive conversation with my Council member colleague, I sent the paper out for review to four experts. Three reviewers responded and were willing to review the paper; all are experts in relevant aspects of evolutionary and molecular biology and hold full-time faculty positions in major research institutions, one at an Ivy League university, another at a major North American public university, a third on a well-known overseas research faculty. There was substantial feedback from reviewers to the author, resulting in significant changes to the paper. The reviewers did not necessarily agree with Dr. Meyer's arguments or his conclusion but all found the paper meritorious and concluded that it warranted publication. The reviewers felt that the issues raised by Meyer were worthy of scientific debate. I too disagreed with many aspects of the Meyer paper but I agreed with their overall assessment and accepted the paper for publication. Thus, four well-qualified biologists with five PhDs in relevant disciplines were of the professional opinion that the paper was worthy of publication.
From original receipt to publication the processing, reviewing, revising, and editing of the Meyer paper took about six months. (By contrast, I once helped colleagues at the Museum rush out a paper on a topic upon which they feared that others were about to preempt them in about four weeks from receipt of the paper to publication.) Even after the paper was completely finished, due to other more pressing matters it sat on my desk for more than two weeks before I finally made time to send it to the printer. Thus, any allegations that I somehow rushed the publication process are patently false.
Forbidden!
It was peer-reviewed, and it dealt with the concept of systematics in using forensics analysis to detect design, something fully in the range of other papers published in the journal and the stated topics of the journal.
This message has been edited by randman, 08-20-2005 04:32 PM

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 19 of 45 (235031)
08-20-2005 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by crashfrog
08-20-2005 4:25 PM


Re: Check prior thread?
Crash, I appreciate your acknolwedgement of your confusing the Wash Post with the Wash Times. However, the Washington Post and NYTs are both liberal.
When people use the term, right or wrong, the liberal media, they are predominantly referring to the NYTs, the Washington Post, ABC, CBS, NBC, and CNN.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 20 of 45 (235032)
08-20-2005 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by crashfrog
08-20-2005 4:27 PM


Re: Scope of Journal
He followed their standard practice. Now, it may be the peer-review process as a whole is a little sloppy.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 24 of 45 (235068)
08-20-2005 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Percy
08-20-2005 7:07 PM


Re: Scope of Journal
Percy, he is not changing his story as you surmise. Of course, they have no published something so controversial and no ID papers, but they have published in the area of systematics, and so it is both within the scope of the journal and something they had not published before.
In fact, journals are to be commended, are they not, for publishing ideas in the general field, but in the specifics, have not been published before?
Right?
Quit spinning and just look at what the guy is saying.

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 Message 23 by Percy, posted 08-20-2005 7:07 PM Percy has replied

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 Message 28 by Percy, posted 08-20-2005 8:41 PM randman has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 25 of 45 (235070)
08-20-2005 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Percy
08-20-2005 6:47 PM


Re: Check prior thread?
The scientists had to have been handpicked. Three randomly chosen biologists would not approve the paper. Were this a realistic possibility it would mean that so many scientists think ID worthy of consideration that we wouldn't be having this discussion and Sternberg's career wouldn't be in ruins.
I strongly disagree. When you have a group committed to ideological purity, as evolutionists are imo, at least a very influential group, then what occurs is you often have a sort of silent, underground dissent that sometimes dares to voice itself openly, but with the "heretic" stomped on as harshly as possible as a warning to the rest. That's how the Roman Catholic heirarchy acted, and imo, with less power of course, that's how the evolutionist heirarchy are acting as well.
You can dismiss that as absurd, but there's a reason the Washington Post, no friend to conservatives and creationists, paints the evo powers that be in such a bad light.
That's how the rest of the nation that is paying attention to this stuff is seeing the debate shape up. They see a basic unfairness and discrimination of a type exactly the opposite of the open-minded, scientific values evolutionists claim to espouse.
It's a free country and you can think my ideas here are wacko, but when the Washington Post seems to agree with randman, you know a bridge of thought has been crossed and that probably a vast majority of Americans agree on this issue.

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
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Message 27 of 45 (235075)
08-20-2005 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Percy
08-20-2005 7:07 PM


Re: Scope of Journal
Summarizing this list, there is one non-taxonomic title in 2003, one in 2002, one in 2000, one in 1985, and one in 1979.
So non-taxonomic titles were in fact common? You verify that from time to time, the journal published non-taxonomic papers.
How can you then justify your claim that the paper is outside of the journals' scope based on primarily publishing taxonomic literature?
This means that 40% of all non-taxonomic articles in the BSW Proceedings have come under Sternberg's watch. Before Sternberg, non-taxonomic articles appeared at the rate of one every six years or so. After Sternberg became editor the rate went up to one per year, six times higher.
Wow. More data for my case. So they knew full well as an editor that he was publishing more papers outside of just strict taxonomy, and they kept him on as editor.
Nothing more needs to be said. This proves 100% that the editor is right; that he was just doing business as usual. If they had a problem, as they claim, with non-taxonomic articles, they could have and would have removed him years ago or instructed that no such articles be submitted.

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 29 of 45 (235098)
08-20-2005 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Percy
08-20-2005 8:41 PM


Re: Scope of Journal
Editing to add quotes for Percy.
It comes as no surprise that such persons like yourself who set themselves up as the judge of objectivity invariably conclude that it's the other guy who's biased.
I am not claiming not have a bias, although I do try to be objective, but the point seems to have sailed right past you that generally the Washington Post's bias and mine are on opposite sides of the fence. The fact they published this article indicates that perhaps my take on this is shared by non-Iders and most likely by many people that accept ToE but think the way evos have acted over this incident and issue is atrocious.
What is it about ID that leads you to conclude it belongs in the taxonomy sub-specialty of biology?
On the subject of the journals stated scope of purview, it appears deductions from and theories about mechanics involved are fair game, and that the ID paper is indeed stating something about the nature of how certain traits arise and using a forensic argument to introduce that concept.
I can see we will just have to amicably disagree here, but I would suggest rather than insisting I am the one being unreasonable, you would at least give some thought to why even an anti-Bush administration and liberal paper would print an article critical of the evolutionist establishment right after Bush publicly announced ID should be on the table as far as education.
It's not that they agree with Bush. It's that the public had no idea that creationist and ID criticism was correct in slamming mainstream evos for being biased, "policized" in the sense of close-minded adherence to ideology, etc,...and I suspect the tide is beginning to turn where many people are concerned that such a group that should ostensibly represent open-minded search for truth would be so unreasonable and act so atrociously.
Keep in mind the Smithsonian is a place where millions of families visit each year. Americans are thus rightly concerned about the quality of the character or lack thereof running this institution.
That's why it's in the news.
This message has been edited by randman, 08-21-2005 01:14 PM

This message is a reply to:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4920 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 32 of 45 (235256)
08-21-2005 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Percy
08-21-2005 7:38 AM


Re: Scope of Journal
I never saw the article as being as negative as you apparently do. The article is about McVay's findings, and McVay shares Sternberg's view of events.
I respectfully submit you may be a little unfamiliar with how newspapers work or not reading it closely. This is not an editorial. They are balanced, but pretty much choose to show the evos in an extremely negative light, as someone from your side of the debate points out in the following.
WaPo Takes a Stand in the War on Science
by Josalo
Fri Aug 19th, 2005 at 13:03:37 PDT
Unfortunately, the wrong one.
The article in question, a front-page Michael Powell piece on Richard Sternberg, who published an "Intelligent Design" article in a Smithsonian periodical he is the editor of, describes the reaction of the scientific community to his actions.
Unfortunately, the article takes a perspective that begs the uninformed reader to view the reaction against the article (and Sternberg's publishing of it) as a bunch of foaming-at-the-mouth narrow-mindedness. It is, in short, a "human interest" piece evoking sympathy for Sternberg and his "plight."
"They were saying I accepted money under the table, that I was a crypto-priest, that I was a sleeper cell operative for the creationists," said Steinberg, 42 , who is a Smithsonian research associate. "I was basically run out of there."
An independent agency has come to the same conclusion, accusing top scientists at the Smithsonian's National Museum of Natural History of retaliating against Sternberg by investigating his religion and smearing him as a "creationist."
WaPo Takes a Stand in the War on Science
Here's another report in the media saying the same thing, albeit from a more conservative news source, though I doubt it had an ID-slant.
The Smithsonian Institution is a national treasure of which every American can legitimately feel a sense of personal ownership. Considering this, I'd imagine widespread displeasure as more Americans become aware that senior scientists at the publicly funded Smithsonian's National Museum of Natural History have reportedly been creating a "hostile work environment" for one of their colleagues merely because he published a controversial idea in a biology journal.
The controversial idea is Intelligent Design, the scientific critique of neo-Darwinism. The persecuted Smithsonian scientist is Richard von Sternberg, the holder of two PhDs in biology (one in theoretical biology, the other in molecular evolution). While the Smithsonian disputes the case, Sternberg's version has so far been substantiated in an investigation by the U.S. Office of Special Counsel (OSC), an independent federal agency.
A lengthy and detailed letter from OSC attorney James McVay, dated August 5, 2005, and addressed to Sternberg, summarizes the government's findings, based largely on e-mail traffic among top Smithsonian scientists. A particularly damning passage in the OSC letter reads:
Our preliminary investigation indicates that retaliation [against Sternberg by his colleagues] came in many forms. It came in the form of attempts to change your working conditions...During the process you were personally investigated and your professional competence was attacked. Misinformation was disseminated throughout the SI [Smithsonian Institution] and to outside sources. The allegations against you were later determined to be false. It is also clear that a hostile work environment was created with the ultimate goal of forcing you out of the SI.
Meanwhile, on the basis of the "misinformation" directed against him, Sternberg's career prospects were being ruined.
Page not found | National Review
It is unfortunate in a publicly funded institution that such prejudice and low tactics would be displayed. One can only hope as a taxpayer that Congress or someone in the government will move to rectify the situation.

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 Message 31 by Percy, posted 08-21-2005 7:38 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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