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Author | Topic: Can Natural Selection Produce Intelligent Design? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Brad McFall Member (Idle past 5054 days) Posts: 3428 From: Ithaca,NY, USA Joined: |
I am acquainted with Russell’s
quote:p43 Bertand Russel Logic and Knowledge Essay 1901-1950Putnam Sons as being on target with Kant’s Conflict of Faculties page69quote: but Wilson escapes the same connotation with an appeal to legislative authority withquote:p17 The View From Evolutionary Biology in Darwin’s Cathedral Kant shewed in Russell's physicality that pictoral based languages AND Aristotelian naming necessity at best provided a UNIT to the organon but Wilson attempts to preview this view a posteriori. The image of the organization would have to be a synthetic a pirori and thus not yet part of symbolic logic IF that viewpoint of the dead body as a mass exists. We are all free to take that however we want in the material of the debate but there are some illegalites on its form, but the fountain with flame comming out of it kitty corner to the bus station in Downtown Greenville is not one of them. This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 08-19-2005 07:41 PM
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lmrenault Inactive Member |
So in summary, basically I'd say yes, natural selection can produce intelligent design (as practiced by humans). In fact, I find it hard to imagine it NOT being produced, based on the environment our ancestors were up against.
Thor, I like your comments - what you have to say and the spirit in which it is said. We're not of one mind on the matter yet, but you have prompted me to do a little more research on our friend Homo sapien (Hs). The latest evidence indicates that Hs has been around for about 300,000, but H sapien sapien (Hss), modern man, otherwise known as "thinking man," has been around for only about 100,000 years. This is the intelligent designer we have discussing who exploded upon the scene changing the face of the planet. If we assume that the first life appeared on earth about 3.7 billion years ago and equate that to one year, Hss has been around for the last 14 minutes. During that time all other Hs types (notably Neanderthal man) disappeared, possibly with the help of Hss. Hss migrated to all habitable parts of the earth through his ability to adapt and learn. It was only about 11,000 years ago (less than 2 minutes on our one-year scale) that he started looking like an intelligent designer, moving beyond the survival mode of hunter/gatherer to domesticating animals, agriculture and working metals. And as we would expect of an intelligent designer, he has now traveled to the Moon, cloned plants and animals, produced great works or art, etc., etc. Can we agree that Hss is no ordinary product of natural selection?
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Annafan Member (Idle past 4601 days) Posts: 418 From: Belgium Joined: |
Can we agree that Hss is no ordinary product of natural selection? Define "ordinary" ;-) Of course, there is absolute no doubt that we are quite unique if you compare us to other products of evolution. However, we always have to add "thus far" and "as far as we know". Or in other words: there are many more eons available in which evolution could (seperately) evolve something of the same level again. And there is an (almost?) infinitely big universe out there that we haven't checked out, and where evolution has undoubtedly also been at work. So from that point of view, it is not so sure that "not ordinary" fits the case. In fact, there are thinkers who will argue that "something of the level of hs" is more or less an inevitable outcome (or intermediate to something better, if you want)of evolution. So personally, I don't feel like agreeing. It's simply inconclusive for the moment.
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jar Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
We're also still a short timer and newbie so the jury is definitely out on whether or not we're successful. After all the flu virus of 1917 spread into almost every habitable area of the globe.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Still making false argument from incredulity.
From broken link (no longer works, quoted material kept elsewhere)Page not found | RAINIER AUDUBON SOCIETY In the early 1890's, the Acclimation Society of North America released 50 pairs of Starlings into New York's Central Park as part of a project to introduce every bird ever mentioned in a Shakespeare play. Only 50 years later their populations had spread across the continent, competing for nesting sites with our native birds. Can we agree that Starlings are no ordinary product of natural selection? we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
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MangyTiger Member (Idle past 6375 days) Posts: 989 From: Leicester, UK Joined: |
From broken link (no longer works, quoted material kept elsewhere) This site seems to maintain the same text you quoted (based on the limited quote). A different (grimmer!) perspective is here. I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
thanks. I will update my bookmark in the article.
I am aware of the grimmer side and have no love for starlings. I'll take a single bluebird to a flock of starlings, and have put up many bluebird houses. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
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Thor Member (Idle past 5932 days) Posts: 148 From: Sydney, Australia Joined: |
Thor, I like your comments - what you have to say and the spirit in which it is said. Thanks, one does one’s best.
but you have prompted me to do a little more research on our friend Homo sapien (Hs). And I am indeed pleased that you have.
Can we agree that Hss is no ordinary product of natural selection? Up to a point. We are extraordinary in that we have a particular advanced adaptation (ie. brain ability) that no other species has to the extent that we do. Well, none that we are aware of anyway. But even though you could say we are not an ordinary product of NS (natural selection), we still are a product of NS. I could say there are several other products of NS that are extraordinary in their own way. I think that bacteria that survive buried in ice are pretty extraordinary. Then there is the way bats use a radar-like ability for catching prey, that’s rather amazing in my book. And the platypus, what on earth is up with that? I only learned a few years ago that they are venomous, as if they weren’t weird enough already. I could go on listing other traits and adaptations that I think are pretty cool, but I think you get my point. Yes we have an extraordinary ability, but that does not necessarily mean it is superior to others, just different and unique, as are many things in many creatures. On the 7th day, God was arrested.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
In fact, there are thinkers who will argue that "something of the level of hs" is more or less an inevitable outcome (or intermediate to something better, if you want)of evolution. How can something that comes about by chance be inevitable?
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Annafan Member (Idle past 4601 days) Posts: 418 From: Belgium Joined: |
How can something that comes about by chance be inevitable? Maybe because it doesn't "come about by chance"? Remember that although mutation is chance, selection is not. Mutation combined with selection produces solutions for certain problems. And convergent evolution illustrates that evolution is able to find certain "best practices" over and over again, independant from each other. Does, one could argue that development of abilities of intelligence is possibly one of those "best practices" which are bound to be discovered by evolution over time. Of course, in case of "intelligence" this is more speculative at this moment than for, for example, the eye or (different types of) wings, because we only have one example. But this could be due to higher complexity that is required before the step becomes an option.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Does, one could argue that development of abilities of intelligence is possibly one of those "best practices" which are bound to be discovered by evolution over time. Depends on what level of intelligence you are talking about
because we only have one example. Every species with a brain is an example of a species that thinks Once this level is reached it is quite possible that one is more intelligent than the rest, but it is not inevitable, nor is it inevitable what level of intelligence is reached
Remember that although mutation is chance, selection is not. Which means there has to be selection pressure for intelligence for this action to have any results in increased intelligence what kind of intelligence results would depend on what was selected for we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
There's also the chance circumstances of the environment. If the environment of earth had been different, the evolutionary changes would have been different.
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Annafan Member (Idle past 4601 days) Posts: 418 From: Belgium Joined: |
Every species with a brain is an example of a species that thinks Agreed. But it looks like there is some intelligence "threshold" that has to be passed before the intelligence is able to super-amplify. And it seems like advanced language is what does the trick?
Once this level is reached it is quite possible that one is more intelligent than the rest, but it is not inevitable, nor is it inevitable what level of intelligence is reached Well, I don't pretend to know for sure that human-level intelligence is "inevitable" or "likely". It's just one of the possibilities, that it is somekind of "forced move" once the necessary brain-complexity is in place. At that point, it might simply be a matter of chance. Like: does some organ evolve that happens to 'transform' into a flexible means of communication?
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
robinrohan,msg 72 writes: If the environment of earth had been different, the evolutionary changes would have been different. Annafan writes: But it looks like there is some intelligence "threshold" that has to be passed before the intelligence is able to super-amplify. And it seems like advanced language is what does the trick? It is possible that a dinosaur like the velociraptor (of movie fame) had a highly developed brain and means of communication. The extinction event kind of precludes making any informed conclusions however. A threshold? a "critical mass"? possibly, but again I think there needs to be a selective pressure to push the envelope, as it were.
At that point, it might simply be a matter of chance. Like: does some organ evolve that happens to 'transform' into a flexible means of communication? But we have plenty of evidence of communication between individuals in a large number of species, from whales to elephants to capucin monkeys to bees. What about a selection for creativity instead? See http://EvC Forum: Is there any indication of increased intellegence over time within the Human species?for a similar discussion. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
such as no asteroid 65 mya eh?
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