War in Iraq, is there a point?

You may or may not be right but a decision had to be made as to the best method to combat terrorism. No matter what decision was made there would be those who would support it and those who would think it wrong. However, that point is now moot as the decision has been made, and to not support that decision only strengthens the hands of the terrorists.For example I posted a link, (post #100 this thread), to a CTV story on the recruitment of a middle class male youth in Canada to Islamic terrorism. I contend that those that go out and actively oppose what is being done to fight terrorism, will make the recruitment of home grown terrorism that much easier. I believe that the bombings in London by home grown terrorists is just the start and I also believe that we will see the same thing in this country in the not too distant future.Your statement also begs the question of what would you have done. It is easy to criticize what has been done, but there has to be a constructive alternative. 9/11 was not the first terrorist attack. The bombings of the American embassies and the attack on the Cole brought the usual response of trying to catch the perpetrators without going after the organization behind it. We can even go back to Munich. If action had been taken sooner maybe 9/11 could have been prevented.You say that, "the method being used is not effective and in fact is increasing the risk of terrorist attacks". How do you know that? It is nearly 4 years since there has been an attack on American soil. There is no doubt in my mind that we are at war but that it is a war unlike any other. The enemy is not identifiable, he has no borders, he is hiding in tunnels in Afghanistan and he lives across the street. The enemy does not play by any rules of traditional warfare, he believes that hatred is an attribute and he in many cases places no value on his own life other than the destruction he can cause with it.The war against terror isn't only being fought militarily. I'm certainly not always in agreement with President Bush. The debt he is running up may become a huge impediment to the long term ability of the US to fight this war. He has however, reached out to people of all faiths, including the Islamic faith, to work passively against terrorism. That is becoming more and more effective as more and more Islamic leaders denounce terrorism.I don't know how effective it has been but there has been a concerted effort to block the flow of money and other resources to the terrorists.As to what else can be done I don't think that there is much else that can be done until all countries in the west come to the conclusion that we are at war. Countries like Canada who think that we can sit back and be safe by not offending the terrorists are part of the problem. We have to start realizing that anyone who provides comfort, resources or verbal support for the terrorist cause are our enemies and should be treated as such. It has taken the London bombings to spur the Blair government to finally move in that direction.It is you that is saying we have to be wiser about using our limited resources. What would you do?

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Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

In modern guerilla warfare it is often innocent civilians that suffer the most. That doesn't necessarily mean the civilians are going to support the occupying power. In fact, they may BLAME the occupying power for the insurgent attacks that kill civilians. Most of the Iraqis targeted are security forces. Many Iraqis probably blame the U.S. for that also. What I fear is that we are entering a new phase in Iraq where there will be all out civil war with the Shia and Kurds fighting the Sunnis. There have been reports in recent days of Shia, Kurd, and Sunni militias forming. Sometimes these militias overlap with the Iraqi security forces, sometimes they are independent of them. If true, it is not a good development.
Short of sending in a half a million troops or so, I am not convinced there is anything the U.S. can do at this point to bring about democracy in Iraq - and I am not sure that would do it.

Ok, after a little investigation I couldn't find that poll from the Boston Globe, which leads me to believe it was either bogus, or a misquote. Can you find another poll that states the % of Iraqis that support the insurgency? It should be more like 2%.We know there are 20,000 fighters and (huge overestimate) 400,000 supporting them.420,000 of 25 million is 1.68%.I know 400,000 people don't support the insurgency. Remember alot (I think most) are not Iraqis and are killing Iraqis.If the boston globe poll is correct, 12 Million Iraqis support the insurgency.That simply isn't true. Difficult to tell if they were talking about a poll on Sunnis, or who did the poll, or even showed any evidence of the poll.All I can say is this is not consistant from what I have seen, and I was there to read the polls.I can't find any other polls that verify this number, but I do find polls that contradict it. BloombergThis message has been edited by Tal, 08-23-2005 03:25 PM

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That is a very, very important question. Thanks for posing it.We're very close to the end of this thread so if we don't get through, perhaps we can follow up in a continuation.Historically conflicts have either been civil wars, internal to some nation-state or between nation states.Can we agree that the current wold-wide terrorist threats are a new paradigm?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Absolutely. Actually that is just a more concise way of saying what I did in my last post.

Good.Next, can we agree that the paradigm involves more than simply the US against Islam, that the tactics used can be applied to any situation between a Nation State and non-Nation State groups?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

It's apperantly a Boston Globe exclusive. Disregarding that, it is still well known that Iraq's Sunni population supports the insurgents. Here is the entire section with relevenat emphesis:Iraqi insurgency - Wikipedia The numbers in brackts are foot note links which can be viewd within the wiki. The footnotes redirect you to the relevant sources. All of them are reputable mainstream newspapers and other publications.It dosn't seem they like us very much.ABE: I read somewhere online that the 45% figure related to the Sunni and Kurds and that the article is unclear on the issue.This message has been edited by Yaro, 08-23-2005 03:39 PM

Disagree.It is about many countries against Islamic extremists. The tactics cannot be applied to any situation between Nation States and non-Nation State groups. The parameters are very specific.

Right. Now go to those links.

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Is the Basque movement about Islamic extremism?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I'll pass on that invitation, Yaro.

Well, for one, I think I would get out of Iraq so that we are no longer a target there and focus on Afghanistan and Pakistan which is what we should have done all along. The Taliban are coming back in Afghanistan and Osama is still on the loose in Pakistan and Afghanistan.Second, I would focus on securing our borders. That means inspecting or scanning every shipping container in every port and every car/truck coming across the border. It also means tracking every foreign national who enters the country using biometric data (electronic hand or eye print). Every foreign national should be required to report in person to an immigration official on a monthly basis or within 24 hours before expiration of their visa or face immediate deportation. Guest workers from Mexico should be legalized, issued with IDs and tracked like any other foreign national.Third, we have to beef up our domestic and foreign human intelligence to not just coordinate more but also to collect more human intelligence on terrorists.

No problem with that. I wish I had a better understanding of the Islamic faith. I have read parts of the Koran and have read Bernard Lewis's book "The Crisis Of Islam".I think that it had the potential to become that, but it is one of the things that I believe the President has handled extremely well. He has reached out to Muslims and their leaders in a way that made it clear that the terrorists were not part of mainstream Islam.

One is an article from an Arabic publication.
Daralhayat.comAnother is the Boston Globe article.The final One is an article from the Polling Firm Zogby International:
Homepage - Zogby

So far so good.Now can you agree that our reactions so far, things like invading Iraq and Afganistan have been patterned on the old paradigm of Nation State Conflicts?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion