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Author | Topic: War in Iraq, is there a point? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The terrorists, both Iraqi and foreign, "know that as freedom takes root in Iraq, it will inspire millions across the Middle East to claim their liberty as well. Why? Spain is a democratic country yet there are Basque terrorists there. Ireland is a Democratic country yet there has been a long history of terrorism there. The US is a democratic country yet there is a long history of terrorism there. Is there any reason to think there is any link between democracy and a lack of terrorism?
And when the Middle East grows in democracy, prosperity, and hope, the terrorists will lose their sponsors, lose their recruits, and lose their hopes for turning that region into a base for attacks on America and our allies around the world Why? The funding for 9-11 did not come from Iraq. The people involved in 9-11 did not come from Iraq. The training for 9-11 was gained in Wales, and Spain, and Phoenix and Orlando, and London. The planning took place in France and the US and England and Germany and Indonesia and Canada. There is nothing in the quote you provided that seems related to reality. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Good point. One explanation is he was in Pakistan, and to go into Pakistan would have entailed Pakistan falling to the terrorists or better terms Islamocists. I'd say it was either that, or the conspiracy folks on the far left are right. We also don't know yet exactly where all the nukes are in the world. Pakistan's top nuclear scientists was assisting North Korea and other states in their nuclear ambitions and seemed to have an alliance with hard-core communist nations against us. Keep in mind the Taliban was the creation of the Pakistani's version of the CIA. Does any of that have anything to do with Iraq? Even if everything above were true (and I think they are at least highly likely) how would that logically lead to invading Iraq? Are you saying that it was too destabilizing to invade Saudia Arabia or Pakistan so we had to invade Iraq? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Puting more forces in Afganistan might have helped stabilize Afganistan. It would have helped stabilize the border area between Afganistan and Pakistan, an area that is still wide open all these years later.
No, it looks like the current administration had more plan in Afganistan than they do in Iraq. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The terrorists got their training in the US, Wales, England, France, Germany, Spain.
The planning was done in Spain, Greece, England, Indionesia, the US, Germany and France. The terrorists came from just about everywhere except Iraq. Funding? Same story. What did 9-11 have to do with Iraq? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Very well said.
I'd go one step further and say that Americans should understand what America really is and has done, not just what they might wish it was. America is not, nor has it been, always moral. We need to understand that and look to make sure such behavior does not happen in the future. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The heart of the Islamist movement, its ideology, and the source of its funds and major training centres, was Afghanistan - bin laden's base - and is still other points in the islamic world. Interesting but that has nothing to do with the question I asked. What does Iraq have to do with 9-11? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Crap.
There is even harder evidence that the terrorists learned to fly the planes in the US. The US directly taught the 9-11 terrorists how to fly those planes. Let's invade the US! No...wait. We already did that with the Patriot Act. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Noriega was a thug & a drug kingpin. I regret to say I know little about Pinochet, but I do know that the USA does not go to war for selfish motives. We always have altruistic motives, it's always for the cause of freedom. That's a nonsense statement and one you need to retract. You do realize that Noriega became a drug lord with the help of the US? What were the Altruistic Motives for the conquest of Florida? Where were the Altruistic Motives in the case Cherokee Nation vs State of Georgia? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Sorry but that's not how it works here. We try to deal with reality, not fanciful imagination.
I asked you two specific questions. Do you have an answer for either? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Tal
Please understand that those of us who oppose the current policies of the Administration are not saying we should not oppose terrorism. What we are saying is that the method being used is not effective and in fact is increasing the risk of terrorist attacks.
Tal writes: And if they get nuclear or biological weapons, do you think they would hesitate to blow up Tampa if they go the chance? That is a very great concern. The issue for many of us is based around that. What is the best method for preventing non-Nation States from getting the means of destruction currently availabe only to Nation States? Frankly, a nuclear weapon is not the biggest threat. If the terrorists were as smart as they seem to be, they would realize that far more damage could be done to the US with conventional methods and very small budgets than with a classic nuclear device. But we need to realize that we do have limited resources. The question is how to best use those resources to get the greatest benefit. No one is saying that terrorism should not be opposed. The debate is, or should be, on how to best use our limited resources. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
It is you that is saying we have to be wiser about using our limited resources. What would you do? That is a very, very important question. Thanks for posing it. We're very close to the end of this thread so if we don't get through, perhaps we can follow up in a continuation. Historically conflicts have either been civil wars, internal to some nation-state or between nation states. Can we agree that the current wold-wide terrorist threats are a new paradigm? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Good.
Next, can we agree that the paradigm involves more than simply the US against Islam, that the tactics used can be applied to any situation between a Nation State and non-Nation State groups? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Is the Basque movement about Islamic extremism?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
So far so good.
Now can you agree that our reactions so far, things like invading Iraq and Afganistan have been patterned on the old paradigm of Nation State Conflicts? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Did the US invade Afganistan?
Did the US invade Iraq? The other things you mention such as working with Pakistan I'll address as we move through. But the issue of invasion and occupation (and we still have troops in Afganistan) is important because of the percentage of the available resources committed. Let's deal with those actions before moving on to others. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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