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Understanding through Discussion


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Author Topic:   General discussion of moderation procedures: The Sequel
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 286 of 300 (236575)
08-24-2005 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by Trixie
08-24-2005 5:35 PM


Re: General comment about signature lines...
What I'd like to know is why we keep being accused of a refusal to learn although we may have put in many hours studying various aspects of the issues we are challenged with, as I have. I have read up on all kinds of basic information as well as specific information about specific issues. But there seems to be this naive expectation that creationists can just learn geology and biology AS IT IS TAUGHT BY EVOLUTIONISTS without having to do a lot of extra work doublethinking and translating it into terms we can make use of for OUR side of the argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Trixie, posted 08-24-2005 5:35 PM Trixie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Jazzns, posted 08-24-2005 6:15 PM Faith has replied
 Message 289 by randman, posted 08-24-2005 6:17 PM Faith has replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 287 of 300 (236580)
08-24-2005 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by randman
08-24-2005 6:02 PM


Re: General comment about signature lines...
Have whatever opinion of it that you would like. But please refrain from misrepresenting both the title and purpose of it.
Thanks,

No smoking signs by gas stations. No religion in the public square. The government should keep us from being engulfed in flames on earth, and that is pretty much it. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by randman, posted 08-24-2005 6:02 PM randman has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 288 of 300 (236581)
08-24-2005 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Faith
08-24-2005 6:04 PM


Re: General comment about signature lines...
This is a great argument for a thread I know.....care to take it there?

No smoking signs by gas stations. No religion in the public square. The government should keep us from being engulfed in flames on earth, and that is pretty much it. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Faith, posted 08-24-2005 6:04 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Faith, posted 08-24-2005 6:35 PM Jazzns has not replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 289 of 300 (236582)
08-24-2005 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Faith
08-24-2005 6:04 PM


Re: General comment about signature lines...
Faith, my experience is the average creationist willing to debate the issue not only understands ToE, but often understands it a lot better than the average evo, who usually learned a bunch of incorrect data and assumptions in school and never questioned it.
Plus, they even more rarely understand their critics.
The premise that people just "don't understand" their theory or them is just absurd.
This message has been edited by randman, 08-24-2005 06:18 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Faith, posted 08-24-2005 6:04 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by Faith, posted 08-24-2005 6:30 PM randman has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 290 of 300 (236586)
08-24-2005 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by randman
08-24-2005 6:17 PM


Re: General comment about signature lines...
I would agree about understanding the ToE itself, but what I've had to catch up on just because they bring up this stuff is things like DNA and the geology of the Grand Canyon and the geology of looking for oil, etc., the nitty gritty stuff which is legit science except for all the evo terminology it's embedded in. What they don't suspect is that most of the information needs TRANSLATION out of Evospeak into plain English for a YEC to use it, AND the questions I have about it simply are NOT answered by these basic studies anyway. I'm sure they don't mean to but what they are asking is that I simply accept all the very stuff I'm arguing with. I don't know about you since you aren't a YEC but this is a lot more work and thought than I'm up to a lot of the time, especially only to be told I'm refusing to learn anything. At every turn the evo assumptions are so thick and so frustrating it makes it impossible to understand just what the #&$*#@% they think they are talking about anyway.
This message has been edited by Faith, 08-24-2005 06:33 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by randman, posted 08-24-2005 6:17 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by randman, posted 08-24-2005 7:58 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 291 of 300 (236587)
08-24-2005 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by Jazzns
08-24-2005 6:15 PM


Re: General comment about signature lines...
What thread is that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Jazzns, posted 08-24-2005 6:15 PM Jazzns has not replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 292 of 300 (236606)
08-24-2005 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by Faith
08-24-2005 6:30 PM


Re: General comment about signature lines...
I agree. Instead of "Understanding through Discussion", there seems to be sophistry, diversion, debating tactics, etc,....I even had one poster tell me the threads are not the people on them, but "for the lurkers".
It's probably a waste of time, but we seem to get sucked in anyway. In terms of some areas, it takes a bit of work, but if you can get an understanding of the process, then you often find some evos are just arguing from terminology and ignoring the heart of the real process, imo, and irregardless, detailed knowledge of a field often is not that all germane to the other areas ToE is based on.
Irregardless, the vile accusations levelled at you, me, and other critics are totally uncalled for.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Faith, posted 08-24-2005 6:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Faith, posted 08-24-2005 8:20 PM randman has not replied
 Message 294 by ringo, posted 08-24-2005 8:51 PM randman has replied
 Message 295 by Faith, posted 08-24-2005 9:44 PM randman has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 293 of 300 (236616)
08-24-2005 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by randman
08-24-2005 7:58 PM


Re: General comment about signature lines...
I guess we're off topic. I might take this to Jazz's thread later.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by randman, posted 08-24-2005 7:58 PM randman has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 294 of 300 (236620)
08-24-2005 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by randman
08-24-2005 7:58 PM


randman writes:
I even had one poster tell me the threads are not the people on them, but "for the lurkers".
Of course they are.
Do you really think you're going to convince the person you're debating with? Do you think Kerry was trying to convince Bush? Or Bush was trying to convince Kerry?
A debate is for the audience. If you understood that, you might do better around here.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by randman, posted 08-24-2005 7:58 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by randman, posted 08-24-2005 10:05 PM ringo has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 295 of 300 (236626)
08-24-2005 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by randman
08-24-2005 7:58 PM


Far from the Modding Crowd
This is on topic though: What happened to your offer to become a mod here? I haven't seen any modding from you yet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by randman, posted 08-24-2005 7:58 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by randman, posted 08-24-2005 10:06 PM Faith has not replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 296 of 300 (236630)
08-24-2005 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by ringo
08-24-2005 8:51 PM


I believe in discussion....
As far as "doing better", I think the general anti-scientific and factual tone often resorting to personal attacks and outrageous accusations is pretty much evidence of the inability of my opponents to create a credible argument to refute the points I raise.
But wouldn't it be better for some of you evos to take the time to actually understand what your critics are saying, and then answer the substance of their points rather than try to score debating points "for the lurkers"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by ringo, posted 08-24-2005 8:51 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by ringo, posted 08-24-2005 10:54 PM randman has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 297 of 300 (236631)
08-24-2005 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Faith
08-24-2005 9:44 PM


Re: Far from the Modding Crowd
Never heard back. I guess the answer was "thanks, but no thanks."
No harm, no foul. It's not a big issue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Faith, posted 08-24-2005 9:44 PM Faith has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 298 of 300 (236638)
08-24-2005 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by randman
08-24-2005 10:05 PM


Ringo's Debating Tips: Lesson 1
randman writes:
... wouldn't it be better for some of you evos to take the time to actually understand what your critics are saying, and then answer the substance of their points rather than try to score debating points "for the lurkers"?
It's not about "scoring points". It's about making your case in a way that the lurkers can understand. That is what you consistently fail to do.
Don't worry about whether the "evos" take the trouble to understand what you're saying.
I had a teacher once who said, "If you can't explain it to an eight-year-old, you don't understand it." If you do understand what you're trying to put across, put it across in such a way that an eight-year-old lurker could understand.
Clearly, you're not getting through to your "opponents". If you're not getting through to the lurkers, what are you doing here?

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by randman, posted 08-24-2005 10:05 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by randman, posted 08-24-2005 10:56 PM ringo has not replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 299 of 300 (236639)
08-24-2005 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by ringo
08-24-2005 10:54 PM


Re: Ringo's Debating Tips: Lesson 1
I think my points do get through to an open-minded person willing to look into the facts for themselves without prejudging the outcome.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by ringo, posted 08-24-2005 10:54 PM ringo has not replied

AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 300 of 300 (236640)
08-24-2005 11:01 PM


Witching Hour: Admins, update your sigs.
Closing this one. Will open a continuation soon.
This message has been edited by AdminJar, 08-24-2005 10:02 PM

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