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Author | Topic: random mutations | |||||||||||||||||||
lbhandli Inactive Member |
From:
Create Evolve on 8/23/00: quote: thmsberry from 2 of Definition of Modern Synthesis
quote: From post 5 by thmsberry:
quote: Note--the surrounding information gave no more meaning to this question AFAICT.
quote: I'm completely confused by this question as well. My question was when he said random, he meant in relation to fitness. Which all mutations are random in relation to fitness. More later.
quote: Given past discussions you have been involved in this should be obvious. And I'm at a loss as to why you are confused.
quote: It is pretty clear actually, I will clarify for you. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what exactly your confusion is. You cited in post 2 of Definition of Modern Synthesis that (quoting again):
quote: Spontaneous mutations are random in relation to fitness and random in a couple other senses: Ayala, Francisco J. and John Kiger Jr. Modern Genetics. 1980. Benjamin/Cummings Publishing Company Inc.pg 551 quote: Lewin
quote: Of course different mutations have different causes spontaneous mutations from Griffiths et alpg 531 [b] [QUOTE] spontaneous are natural occurring and occur in all cells [/b][/QUOTE] induced:
[b] [QUOTE] Induced are porduced when an organism is exposed to a mutagenic agent or mutagen [/b][/QUOTE] pg 532
[b] [QUOTE] Spontaneous mutations arise from a variety of sources including errors in DNA replication, spontaneous lesions, and transposable genetic elements [/b][/QUOTE] Hartl and Freifelder pg 332
[b] [QUOTE] Mutations are random events and there is no way of knowing when or in which cell a mutation will occur. However, every gene mutates at a characteristic rate making it possible to assign probabilitiesto particular mutational events. Thus, there is a definite probability that a given gene will mutate in a particular cell, and likewise a definite probability that a mutant allele of the gene will occur in a population of a particular size. Different kinds of alterations in the DNA lead to mutations, and since these changes differ substantially in complexity, they occur with quite different probabilities. Mutations are also random in the sense that their occurrence is not related to any adaptive advantage they may confer on the organism in its environment [/b][/QUOTE] now from you again:
quote: The only important aspect of randomness to anything I'm discussing is that it is random in relation to fitness. Mutations are random in some other senses, but see the first quote at the top of this post...What did you mean by the quote directly above? How are HGTs not random in relation to fitness? Even if you don't classify them as mutations--please cite specific material that is relevant. The only challenge is if you could demonstrate that they are not random in relation to fitness. Clarify. Thanks,Larry Handlin [This message has been edited by lbhandli (edited 03-13-2001).] [This message has been edited by lbhandli (edited 03-13-2001).]
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lbhandli Inactive Member |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Thmsberry:
[B] I argue that mutations are contingent or currently unpredictable by mankind. The process by which populations of organisms adapt to their environment is extemely contingent. Mutations occur independent of any one particular environmental advantage for a given organism. This appears to be what you mean when you say random in terms of fitness.
[/QUOTE] What I mean? Yes, and what nearly every source says. It isn't that hard to follow. This is a scientific statement.
quote: What does the above have to do with science? It appears to be personal philosophy unless you are making a Lamarkian argument. And I really don't care about your personal philosophies.
quote: And how is this related to science? Your personal philosophies are quite irrelevant.
quote: That is nice, but I'm not interested in bad theology. Please confine you remarks to science.
quote: And you still haven't explained who is counted in that definition. Is it by self-identification or by some sort of bizarre labeling based on a persons faith?
quote: What argument? That you have personal faith? Okay. What does that have to do with science? Now, let me ask you what you meant by:
quote: What did this mean? It appears to be at odds with your famed consistency. Random in relation to fitness is the primary way anyone is going to address the issue so perhaps you can explain what the above was meant to convey? Or are you arguing Horizontal Gene Transfer is not random in relation to fitness? Clarify... Cheers,Larry Handlin
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lbhandli Inactive Member |
quote: you from post 4:
quote: The was the last sentence of the first quote a mistake? It directly contradicts what you say in the second quote. In the first you claim biologists and geneticists define mutations as random, not contingent. In the second, you say they are contingent and complex. If this is a mistake fine. However, I will be quoting you on how careful you are with your wording. Additionally, I asked specifically, does this mean you are arguing HGTs are not random in relation to fitness? Thanks,Larry
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lbhandli Inactive Member |
It wasn't clear before, thank you.
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lbhandli Inactive Member |
It wasn't clear before, thank you.
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