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Author Topic:   The politics of assassination
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 61 of 150 (237112)
08-26-2005 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Nuggin
08-25-2005 11:54 PM


Re: Hypocrites, one and all
It was a dumb question. Of course he asks donations. Or at least I assume he does. I haven't watched the 700 Club in ages. Your insinuation that that's somehow evil makes me practically speechless.
Check the post I was answering to find out what I was answering.
This message has been edited by Faith, 08-26-2005 12:10 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Nuggin, posted 08-25-2005 11:54 PM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 62 of 150 (237114)
08-26-2005 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Nuggin
08-25-2005 11:46 PM


Re: Well, I cannot defend Rev. Robertson, Faith
They learned it from us. You're all so historically challenged it's pathetic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Nuggin, posted 08-25-2005 11:46 PM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 63 of 150 (237115)
08-26-2005 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Nuggin
08-25-2005 11:46 PM


Re: Well, I cannot defend Rev. Robertson, Faith
Nuggin. Here is the explanation of the figures you have provided from the web site you quoted.
nationmaster.com writes:
Definition: The net official development assistance (ODA) from Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) nations to developing countries and multilateral organizations. ODA is defined as financial assistance that is concessional in character, has the main objective to promote economic development and welfare of the less developed countries (LDCs), and contains a grant element of at least 25%. The entry does not cover other official flows (OOF) or private flows. Per capita figures expressed per 1 population.
Note that the entry does not include "other official flows" or "private flows" The American administration has very little confidence in the OECD and thus donates very lightly to them. Government to government aid is a pathetic waste of money.
When the tsunami hit in SE Asia the Americans were right there providing direct aid, more quickly, more efficiently and more generously than anyone else by my reading of papers in Canada.
The figures you provided are meaningless because they include only the American contribution to the OECD which is only a very small part of their foreign aid policy from everything I understand.
edited to add:
Here is a web site that explains those statistics. By the way, I'm not an American and have never lived there. I just like seeing credit given where credit is due.
Hudson Institute: Looking for something?
quote from report writes:
Europeans and the Japanese continue to give primarily through their governments, but the OECD's outdated measure fails to take into account how Americans now give abroad. In 2000, the last year for which comparative figures are available, U.S. ODA totaled $9.9 billion. This figure includes the budgets of the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) and the Peace Corps, contributions to the World Bank, and some State and Defense Department humanitarian assistance. Together, these programs account for just over one-sixth of total U.S. assistance -- public and private -- to developing countries. Private giving makes up more than 60 percent. The remainder -- $12.7 billion in 2000 -- is government aid that, although not within ODA guidelines, is still foreign assistance. This includes aid to Israel, Russia, the Central Asian Republics, and central and eastern European nations and support for the National Endowment for Democracy and international organizations such as the International Monetary Fund.
This isn't the whole story either. It is necessary to read the entire article via the link
This message has been edited by GDR, 08-25-2005 09:52 PM

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 64 of 150 (237116)
08-26-2005 12:12 AM


I'm off this thread now. I wanted others to discuss this, not me as I wasn't up on any of it. But it's turned into a bash thread and I'm gone. Apologies to whomever it may be required.

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 65 of 150 (237117)
08-26-2005 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Nuggin
08-25-2005 11:46 PM


Re: Well, I cannot defend Rev. Robertson, Faith
Those are bogus statistics. The vast majority of American aid comes from private sources, not the government. So using government aid stats is misleading and wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Nuggin, posted 08-25-2005 11:46 PM Nuggin has not replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 66 of 150 (237121)
08-26-2005 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Faith
08-26-2005 12:05 AM


Re: Hypocrites, one and all
Once again, you start pointing fingers and putting words in other people's mouths. Let's trace the thread, shall we.
You in message 4:
Interesting. The consensus so far is "lynch Robertson," period. Not a word about Stephanopoulos or military leaders having the same view of political assassinations and saying so publically. Hm.
Me in message 8:
As for military leaders, it's one thing for a general to advocate/discuss assassination when dealing with a country we are at war with or about to be at war with.
PR wanted us to assassinate the leader of a country that we not only are at peace with, but with which we have hearty trade.
If you can't tell the difference...
You 15:
I haven't seen people criticizing Robertson with that emphasis...seems to me the attitude has been predominantly along the broad lines...that he's just an evil man who advocates murder and hatred
Me 20:
Obviously the outrage at PR is that he says this stuff, then asks people for money because he's so saintly
You 24
Typical slander. There are corrupt televangelist ministries that do fleece the people, but Pat Robertson's is not one of them.
What slander? He is asking people for money on the premise that he's doing God's work. He is also calling for the assassination of leader who don't want the United States to invade them for their oil.
But let's continue
Me 37:
Pat Robertson does not ask for donations?
You 61:
Of course he asks donations...Your insinuation that that's somehow evil makes me practically speechless.
Check the post I was answering to find out what I was answering.
How am I insinuating that PR is evil? You said that I was slandering him when I said he asked for donations. Sounds like you are overcompensating for something.
Could it be that you believe that he's evil and are projecting that on me?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 08-26-2005 12:05 AM Faith has not replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 67 of 150 (237123)
08-26-2005 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Faith
08-26-2005 12:09 AM


Re: Well, I cannot defend Rev. Robertson, Faith
They learned it from us. You're all so historically challenged it's pathetic.
Typical Faith posting.
You make an outrageously false statement, are quickly and completely disproven and your response is, "you guys are stupid."
You said we are the biggest giver of aid. I have shown that we are not.
Admit you are wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Faith, posted 08-26-2005 12:09 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 68 of 150 (237125)
08-26-2005 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Nuggin
08-26-2005 1:16 AM


Re: Well, I cannot defend Rev. Robertson, Faith
You said we are the biggest giver of aid. I have shown that we are not.
Admit you are wrong.
Excuse me if I feel like vomiting. Unbeleivable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Nuggin, posted 08-26-2005 1:16 AM Nuggin has not replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 69 of 150 (237126)
08-26-2005 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by GDR
08-26-2005 12:11 AM


Re: Well, I cannot defend Rev. Robertson, Faith
Thank you GDR for posting clearly and giving quotes.
You are correct that the numbers I gave are government to government trade.
I'm sure you are also right about individual donations after the tsunami, though I haven't seen any numbers.
It may be that Faith was half right in saying that Americans give quite a lot as individual citizens.
But our discussion is about government policy. The government does very little to sponsor individual giving.
I also wonder, but have no idea where to find this information, how our individual donations rate on a per capita level.
About your second quote -- the 12.7 billion in government aid that isn't within ODA guidelines. Can we really call this "aid"? We give Isreal several million dollars worth of fighter jets as aid, but really it's arming an ally.
I consider "aid" to be programs that help people without an overt benifit to ourselves. (ie AIDS in Africa, Tsunami, 3rd world Debt relief)

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 70 of 150 (237130)
08-26-2005 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Nuggin
08-26-2005 1:25 AM


Re: Well, I cannot defend Rev. Robertson, Faith
But our discussion is about government policy. The government does very little to sponsor individual giving.
And that's a good thing since we don't want the government getting so involved it screws things up.
Of course, the government does offer tax deductions. So they do a little.

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 71 of 150 (237165)
08-26-2005 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Faith
08-25-2005 11:04 PM


Re: Well, I cannot defend Rev. Robertson, Faith
Faith writes:
America is the biggest all time giver of aid of every kind to the rest of the world, both as a government and as individual citizens.
America is the biggest giver because we are the wealthiest nation. we also consume 75% of the resources of the world, as individuals we save the least amount of our money, and compared to what we give, we waste many times that amount on gambling, pornography, materialism, and fun and games. My point, connecting this with Pat Robertson and the Christian Righteous, is the fact that we pretend to be so moral when we are at best no better than the leftists and fascists of the world. Remember the Widow who gave all she had, while the wealthy gave out of their abundance? As a percentage of our income, we are NOT the most generous nation in the world.

It's not about how much you know, but what you do with what you know.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Convictions are very different from intentions. Convictions are something God gives us that we have to do. Intentions are things that we ought to do, but we never follow through with them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Faith, posted 08-25-2005 11:04 PM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 72 of 150 (237171)
08-26-2005 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Phat
08-26-2005 3:21 AM


Re: Well, I cannot defend Rev. Robertson, Faith
I believe it is more true of America in the past than it is now, but it is true that historically America has always been the leader in aid to the entire world of every sort. I believe it comes out of our previous identity as a Christian nation and was modeled on the missionary work that was also a big American project though done by individuals and churches and not the government.
Over the last few decades the nation has deteriorated morally in many ways (and I expect God's judgment of the nation for this), and I certainly agree with you about the general greed and wastefulness as a characterization of American life, but your accusation of Pat Robertson is unwarranted and uncharitable to say the least. How on earth does he deserve even a 10th of the vilification that has been heaped on him here in the last couple of days? What's that about throwing the first stone? Is everybody here so righteous? Sure sounds like most of you think you are.

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Replies to this message:
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Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 150 (237173)
08-26-2005 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Faith
08-26-2005 3:31 AM


Re: Well, I cannot defend Rev. Robertson, Faith
I believe it is more true of America in the past than it is now, but it is true that historically America has always been the leader in aid to the entire world of every sort.
Faith, do you have anything which could help me understand why you think this is true? I'm guessing its more than wishful thinking?
PE

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Faith, posted 08-26-2005 3:31 AM Faith has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 74 of 150 (237189)
08-26-2005 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Faith
08-26-2005 3:31 AM


Re: Well, I cannot defend Rev. Robertson, Faith
How on earth does he deserve even a 10th of the vilification that has been heaped on him here in the last couple of days?
I'm not sure what quantification methods you have used, but I will agree that PR does not deserve as much condemnation from his recent comments... than he does for all of his past ignorant and dangerous comments.
Are you honestly giving him a pass for suggesting someone bomb the State Department? Or that people pray to God to incapacitate a SC justice?
What's that about throwing the first stone?
I don't know. How does that fit in with Chavez, the state dept, and the supreme court? They didn't throw stones at PR did they?
Is everybody here so righteous? Sure sounds like most of you think you are.
More so than PR on these particular issues. But "righteous" isn't exactly the right word. "Consistent" would be better, and "Not a dangerous, raving asshole" would be better still.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Faith, posted 08-26-2005 3:31 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 75 of 150 (237217)
08-26-2005 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by randman
08-25-2005 9:04 PM


Re: just want to add.....
randman writes:
The fact is the Left preaches big about separation of Church and State, and not judging religion by politics, but then demonizes a man for his political position.
If you disagree with Robertson's politics, fine. That doesn't make him a bad man, nor that he is even wrong.
I take this to mean that you agree with me that the 700 Club should no longer be tax exempt.

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