The politics of assassination

If God commanded it, and I don't know since I'm not sure what you are talking about, but if He did then it is justice, as God does judge nations on this earth. It isn't for you to decide who is innocent or guilty in that case, God decides that, and your own personal innocent or guilt will also eventually be judged when you face Him on Judgment Day. Perhaps we should just ask you which of His laws you've broken in your life. You will be judged on your breaking of any single one of them on Judgment Day, including your daring to judge Him.

You asked a simple question, I gave a simple answer. YOu are now asking a completely different question. Times are different now. I've discussed this sort of thing before but it's way off topic on this thread and I'm not interested in discussing it again at this moment.

Start another thread if you would like to discuss these things. It is off topic here.This message has been edited by Faith, 08-26-2005 05:20 PM

Ah, morality..."Is it good becase God commands it, or does God command it because it is good?"Some Christians, myself included, would dispute your position on marality, Faith. I don'r believe God actually committed any of the horrible acts described in the Bible - I believe they were misconceptions and embellished stories made by the authors. Some, I believe were nothing more than made-up fables to prove a point.I, and many other Christians, certainly don't believe that an otherwise evil act is somehow magically "good" or "justice" simply becuase an all-powerful deity does it. I believe God is defined as good because He only DOES good - not that all acts He does are defined as good becasue He did them.The murder of the Egyptian Firstborn, the destruction of Soddom and Gamorrah - I don't believe God would do such things, and there is no evidence that He DID outside of the Bible itself. The killing of every man, woman and child in the various nations the Hebrews took over was certainly no command of the God I believe in - I believe the killing was simply an act of overzealous soldiers, and the Hebrews later attributed the act to God's Will as a justification for their bloodlust.

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Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.

Nobody said Chavez deserved death. The topic got moved from the particular case to the accusation that Pat Robertson violated the commandment against murder in calling for his death. I took it into the general question of what "Thou shalt not kill" means. We've agreed that Robertson was wrong to say what he said. I don't have any idea about Chavez, what he deserves or doesn't deserve, but I do know that if it's justice it's not murder.

Both would be true. But what makes you a Christian if you despise God's Law? David said in the 119th psalm "Oh how I love Your Law." God's Law is beautiful, God's Law is good, it is spiritual, it is holy. That is affirmed in the New Testament too: Jesus' Sermon on the Mount was nothing but His teaching of the Law and its spiritual depths -- not just "Have you committed adultery" but "Have you lusted in your heart?" Not just "Have you committed murder" but "Have you hated someone in your heart?" The Law judges us all as we have all sinned against it. But a Christian loves that Law nevertheless simply because it is perfect and good and holy. Well then, if you call yourself a Christian apparently you believe SOMETHING in the Bible, right? But what you are saying about certain events in the Old Testament could be said about ANYTHING in the Bible whatever. Some believe that Jesus was just made up too, all His miracles just made-up fables and all His beautiful teachings just made up to prove a point. Do you believe any of them? Well, what basis do you have for that? There is no evidence for any of it outside the Bible testimony. And again, there is also no evidence of Jesus outside of the Bible itself either. There is no evidence of His life or His resurrection or of the doctrine of His payment for our sins against the Law outside the Bible itself. YOu give yourself the right to decide what is true or false in the Bible. Well, that gives everybody else the same right. What makes your judgments better than anybody else's? Are you really willing to stake your own destiny on your own personal judgments of what's true or false, right or wrong in the Bible?Sorry, this is way off topic. I shouldn't have answered you, but I did. But this ought to be continued on another thread. In fact I won't answer any more off-topic posts.This message has been edited by Faith, 08-26-2005 05:47 PM

I did, and the paper did not show that there was any genetic role in the "gender behavior" of fruit flies.It showed that genetic alterations could result in physical genital changes, as well as affect the mating behaviors. This was not necessarily a "gender" issue, but one of altering perception and behavior in general.Studies suggest that the males lose the ability to determine between male and female, and not that they suddenly feel they are female and so like males. They were also no longer capable of performing proper "instinctual" mating rituals.Those are wholesale cognitive issues, and not merely gender issues.There is a second follow up thread on the evidence for genetic influence on sexuality in the Coffee House which is still open if you are interested in where the conversation went after it left the first thread.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

For the purposes of this discussion, I'll accept the Biblical account of Jesus as an accurate portrayal, in which case the reply is crsytal clear that, no, of course Jesus would not have shot Hitler--he would have performed an exorcism, or healed him of his madness.If your question to me is, assuming I had perfect knowledge of Hitler's Holocaust intentions, and the opportunity, would I have assassinated him to prevent that great evil?Sure, in that perfect test tube world, I would.Meanwhile, back in the real world, outside of test-tube moral thought experiments, the problem is that I don't believe in the assumption of perfect knowledge. By the time his intentions were truly clear, millions of people sought to kill him.Moral questions are not presented with the trappings of time travel and perfect knowledge of consequences: moral questions present themselves right here, right now, to imperfect people like Pat Robertson, Chavez, Faith, Ominivorous, and randman. I would (and have) intervene to defend a victim of violence. I would carry arms (again) for my country or its allies to repel an invasion.We are all imperfect creatures. Should each of us be armed with the moral right to kill another for a greater moral good? That is not a precept for a moral universe, it is the blood rule of a charnel house.What would a Christian do?Based on contemporary evidence, where Christians sort through the entrails of our Constitution and Bible to find justifications for murder, torture, and wars of aggression, I suppose a radical fundamentalist Christian would kill lots of people, since they embrace so much certainty, much like radical fundamentalist Muslims.Based on contemporary evangelicals' taste for a "more muscular" Christ, I suppose many Christians think Jesus would shoot Hitler, Saddam, Osama, and many other people, too.Preemptive murder is as outrageously immoral a notion as preemptive war.To act as judge and executioner requires a moral certainty to which none of us have any claim. To claim that certainty is to claim to be the Hand of God.On second thought, I believe Jesus would weep.

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Gee, I wonder why anyone would think they were christains?

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Wow Edit for inappropriate post.But you really know very little about history. Global History class for a year schooled you.This message has been edited by prophex, 08-26-2005 07:53 PM

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porteus@gmail.com

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I would carry arms (again) for my country or its allies to repel an invasion.

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This is interesting. I can see why one choose to carry arms for one's country to repel an invasion but not for any other nation (I myself would limit it to an invasion of the region in which I am living); I fail to see, however, the distinction between an ally of your country and other countries. Why, for example, would you choose to carry arms to repel an invasion of Kuwait but not for Venezuala? Just curious, don't you know.

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Some Christians, myself included, would dispute your position on marality, Faith. I don'r believe God actually committed any of the horrible acts described in the Bible - I believe they were misconceptions and embellished stories made by the authors. Some, I believe were nothing more than made-up fables to prove a point.

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The murder of the Egyptian Firstborn, the destruction of Soddom and Gamorrah - I don't believe God would do such things, and there is no evidence that He DID outside of the Bible itself. The killing of every man, woman and child in the various nations the Hebrews took over was certainly no command of the God I believe in - I believe the killing was simply an act of overzealous soldiers, and the Hebrews later attributed the act to God's Will as a justification for their bloodlust.

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So, you took the easy way out. It's like refusing to attempt to understand such a complex God, so you take the route of carelessness, and you lost your passion to know more about your creator. Not only does it take a great leap of faith to believe the sometimes unexplainable stories in the Torah/Old Testament, but it takes a great deal of study. To wrap your mind around such a God seems impossible, I know. Check - NIV: Exodus 4:21The LORD said to Moses,When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. Then say to Pharaoh, ‘This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, and I told you, Let my son go, so he may worship me. But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.’As an example of many times in EXODUS where the Lord breached the Pharaoh’s free will. Not only is this confusing, but because of God’s breach, hundreds maybe thousands of Egyptians reportedly died from plagues, and killings caused by the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart.Is God somehow responsible for these acts?Should we question our God’s divine ability to judge?People tell me that I can’t understand God, that he is unfathomable. But everything I have learned of God tells me that these acts aren’t good. That they are in fact, atrocities... A common reaction, God isn’t human, this to mankind seems inexcusable, but to God is slight, and means nothing. The after life is what matters to God, what happens on earth is insignificant, those lives were judged, and they, and who affected by them were erased. But then why do I love those who are on earth no longer? Why do I care? Are these human responses, that God does not feel? I would hate for it to be like that, I want my God to care, to love, and to feel devastated at the death of someone close to me, or close to anyone.It seems that because of these qualities of God, things written that seem so disgraceful and malignant to humanity, must have been acceptable, normal, right, reasonable to God. This makes a relationship with my creator very difficult, almost impossible. How can I relate to a being that seems unfeeling, out of this world? Deaths attributed to God in the Bible can’t be simply excused by me, I can’t accept these people destroyed... I won’t.Christ is a part of my being, yet these things are in my God. I’ve thought about this for a very long time, only weakening myself. Bringing me apart from my beliefs that were given to me when I was very young through fear.The Torah God sometimes seems like a totally different God than the Jesus of the New Testament, but Jesus referenced the Torah many times using scripture.I still try to get God, but the answers theologians give me about "God gives life, he can take it" don't satisfy me, don't give up.

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I, and many other Christians, certainly don't believe that an otherwise evil act is somehow magically "good" or "justice" simply becuase an all-powerful deity does it. I believe God is defined as good because He only DOES good - not that all acts He does are defined as good becasue He did them.

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This again eliminates the thinking behind each hidden meaning, behind each greater good.

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porteus@gmail.com

That's a fair question, Chiroptera, and the simplest reply is that it is a distinction I did not intend to draw.I suppose the phrasing is a remnant of a younger, more naive Omnivorous who saw the world as a simpler place, where alliances of democracies sought mutual defense arrangements against alliances of totalitarianism.I oppose any imposition of one people on another, through force of arms or any other means, including economic.More carefully worded, my willingness to oppose invasion/aggression would include Venezuala or any other people on or off the planet, as well as the creatures of the rain forest and the Artic circle via clear-cutting and environmental change.I would resort to violence only to oppose it. I recognize the paradox--though that paradox, like most, dissipates when it steps from the abstract into the light of day.

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I would resort to violence only to oppose it. I recognize the paradox....

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Oh, I don't know whether I'd call it a paradox. Although I respect pacifists, I am not a pacifist myself. I, too, feel that at times violence must be opposed with violence, and outright invasion is one of those times.

I am going to propose another thread on the problem you raise, which is echoed by others here, about the supposed conflict between the wrath of God and the mercy of Jesus.

Iight.

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porteus@gmail.com