Death Penalty

In an attempt to keep other treads on topic, I'm moving this quote from Faith to here. What the Pro-Death people fail to realize is that there are many different reasons to be against the Death Penalty. It's not as simple as "I don't think the State should execute people." Though that position is certainly valid.

Thanks for the attention to topic control.This needs work:Please add some of your discussion.Suggest where this should be moved to.\If there was any other discussion leading up to this I might be useful here.You might want to state some of the "many different reasons" since that would be an obvious first question.This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 08-26-2005 07:35 PM

Here's some, but probably not all of the reason to oppose the death penalty.1) Principle - "I don't think the state should execute prisoners under any circumstances."
2) Economics - "The cost of a trial and appeals in a capital case is prohibative. That money could be spent in much better ways."
3) Failable - "Our legal system has proven to be less than perfect. There have been a number of people found guilty of crimes they did not commit. There is no way to reverse an execution."
4) Cruel & Unusual - "Putting someone to death is both cruel and unusual and therefore prohibited by the 8th amendment."
5) Geo-Political - "Most countries do not have the death penalty and look at our practices as being barbaric."Anyone wanna take these on or bolster these up? Anyone have ones that I've missed?

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

I'm somewhat curious where the Bible calls for the execution of a violator of the Ten Commandments. (Which ten, exactly?) Is it all commandments? Like, if I covent my neighbor's possessions? You know, like you're supposed to under a capitalist economy?Or, worshipping another god or creating graven images? Is that a death sentence?

Why did Faith say that? "Thou shall not kill".... ElementaryAnd provide the verses where is says to execute those who execute others please, because Jesus doesn't agree with you Faith.Matthew 5:38

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Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

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My brother was right about this influx of militant Christians, maybe I was wrong to think that my community wouldn't kill anyone, or even think about having someone executed. I really hope Faith didn't mean what she wrote, or made a mistake, because it wouldn't be fun to argue with God. Ah, it's so simple. I don't get it. Just like when a preacher said that "turn the other cheek" meant "step up to anyone who messes with you". Wow.

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porteus@gmail.com

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You know, like you're supposed to under a capitalist economy?

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I hate capitalism so much. An economy ran by material gratification. Doesn't get any more trivial than that.

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porteus@gmail.com

I'm not sure I agree with that one. Locking somebody up for life on a crime they didn't commit is just as wrong.What we really need is a thorough examination of our criminal justice system. It is badly broken.

I think you misunderstand my point nwr.I'm not saying leave the innocent in jail. I'm saying we should stop killing people until we can know for certain that they did it.While it's wrong to imprison the innocent at all, I'd rather have someone freed after 5 years when the error is corrected, than to have an apology issued after his execution.I agree that the criminal justice system is broken, and only seems to be getting worse

I think the biggest reason, at least for me, is that it is irreversible.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I didn't really miss your point. It is just that I am troubled by what I see.Here is Illinois we have suspended executions because of the wrongful convictions. But it seems that many people assume this solves the problem, and are not looking to improve the criminal justice system, except perhaps where the death penalty is involved.I guess I'm drifting off topic, so I won't pursue this direction any further.

Hi,Nug, allied with these five questions is the justification for punishment, especially capital punishment.
1. It`s a deterrent to others
2. It`s society`s revenge
3, it`s society seeking revenge for the victim
3. It prevents the perp repeating
4. (possibly) blood lust/sadism in authorities? (Election time and feeding public outcry)There`s a school of thought that modern forensics, especially DNA testing will prevent miscarriages of justice. However a number of high-profile cases in Australia were sentenced on forensics which were later proved wrong. Science may seem the outstanding conviction device, but reality shows otherwise.http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...50808_forensics_2.htmlEdited for clarityThis message has been edited by Nighttrain, 08-30-2005 04:57 AM

Problem is, it's not. Study after study have shown that the DP doesn't actually deter crime (accept in the case of that particular individual).A well reasoned point that I heard on some debate show was this -- Do you really expect a drug dealer who's at risk from being shot day in and day out to think twice when six years down the road after a truck load of appeals, the state might take his life? Society doesn't need to seek revenge. In fact, the criminal justice system shouldn't be about "revenge", it should be about punishment. Sounds like I'm splitting hairs, but I'm not.A crafty lawyer can screw you in a business deal. He's done everything legally, but you still want "revenge". Revenge has more to do with the victim than the perp.We as a society should rise above that level. When people list the names of countries that have DP, it looks a lot like the "Axis of Evil". What's that saying about the company you keep.Ditto with

> 1. It`s a deterrent to othersWell many crimes are crimes og passion, or accidental. If you are in the heat of the moment you are not usually thinking through the consequences. This might work better for white collar crime though. Use capital punishment for tax evasion for example, that would be effective I guess.the other side of the coin for the deterrent is that the coldblooded murdere could just as well use it as an excuse for further crime. If you have killed 2 people in cold blood, and run into a police officer, you allready know your probably gonna hang for your crimes, so killing the police officer is free of charge.> 2. It`s society`s revengeRevenge is a shit poor way to run a society. Revenge is not about justice, but about appeasing emotions.> It prevents the perp repeatingBut it is not the ony option doing that. I find that in the few backwards societies that still practice capital punishment (hear me rorar), criminals are seen as pariahs. You can see the crazy practice of three strikes policy doing the same stereotyping. It divides people into good and bad. Bad people are criminals, and good people are not.This relieves you of the strain of finding the reasons for crime. It is a fact that poverty seems to be a good indicator for felonies. A lot of people would not have become felons if they were not poor. this does not mean that we should excuse the felons, but we should remember that given better options most of them probably would have chosen another route. If we, instead of trying to make prisons as nasty as possible, like you are doing in the US with rape and violence being the order of the day, tried to resocialize inmates. Not because we want to help the poor criminals, but because we want to make sure that the future will bring fewer crimes.To kill a person is the easiest, and most stupid way to make sure he doesn't commit a crime again./Soren