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Author Topic:   2/3rds of Americans want creationism taught.
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 16 of 253 (238827)
08-31-2005 4:29 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by randman
08-31-2005 3:25 AM


Re: Creation in School
Personally, I'd just like them to teach all the facts, data, and arguments not supportive of ToE, and force the correction of the vast overstatements used to indoctrinate kids into accepting ToE.
Okay, I totally agree with that. Of course it should be in conjunction with teaching all the evidence which went into formulating the ToE as well.
Now what on earth does that have to do with Creationism? Or teaching Creationism?
Teaching good science, including the "edges" or "issues" within a theory has nothing to do with delivering support for another theory.
And I find this sort of interesting. If you want all the negatives of Evo taught, do you also demand that all the counterevidence to Abrahamic Creationism be taught? See that's exactly where 2/3rd's of the population might not know what they are really asking for. If they ask for this, what they will get... what they must get... is the refutation of Creationism in public school. There is much more evidence against that myth than anything for it.
Or are you actually desiring that only refutations of Evo be taught, along with anything positive about Creo without any refuting evidence?
By the way 2/3rds of a population wanting something does not make it right, or worthy to be taught in science. About that many people thought Saddam Hussein had something to do with 911. If they desired that be taught in history class, at least as an "alternative theory" of modern history, would that be correct?
And don't speak for those 2/3rds as if they are somehow deep scholars who had their "faith" in evo shaken by great amounts of research that actual scientists are somehow missing. Unless of course you wish to show some of their wonderful scholarship on the field of science? Armchair science is just as lame as armchair generalship.
I still don't get you. You seem to flit back and forth between ID and full creo. Shouldn't you be picking a side and sticking with it?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by randman, posted 08-31-2005 3:25 AM randman has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Mammuthus, posted 08-31-2005 5:12 AM Silent H has replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 17 of 253 (238831)
08-31-2005 5:12 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Silent H
08-31-2005 4:29 AM


Re: Creation in School
What I actually wonder is why creationists need this anyway? I mean, those same 2/3rd Americans who want creationism taught in school are exposed to it every time they enter their respective churches. Why do they need it then repeated in a science classroom? Is their faith so shallow that they fear people learning the "alternatives" in school? Why does the Flying Spaghetti Monster (the one true god..ramen!) and his noodly appendage need the protection of scientific illiterates?
I would say that over 2/3rds of Americans don't even know what science is to begin with. Continuing an assault on the education system will just make an even larger portion of the US intellectually like a pre-industrial society.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Silent H, posted 08-31-2005 4:29 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by CK, posted 08-31-2005 5:35 AM Mammuthus has replied
 Message 24 by Silent H, posted 08-31-2005 7:14 AM Mammuthus has not replied
 Message 32 by purpledawn, posted 08-31-2005 9:19 AM Mammuthus has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 18 of 253 (238838)
08-31-2005 5:35 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Mammuthus
08-31-2005 5:12 AM


Re: Creation in School
ah polls - that's torch of truth!
quote:
For instance, a CNN/Time magazine poll released September 13, 2001, asked Americans whether Congress should declare war. Sixty-two percent said yes. When they were then asked against whom war should be declared, 61 percent said they didn't know.
http://www.ajr.org/article_printable.asp?id=2748
(This is an interesting subject so I've dropped the anti-randman shield around the USS Firefox for the moment).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Mammuthus, posted 08-31-2005 5:12 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Mammuthus, posted 08-31-2005 6:07 AM CK has replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 19 of 253 (238849)
08-31-2005 6:07 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by CK
08-31-2005 5:35 AM


Re: Creation in School
There are a lot of problems with these types of polls..especially how the questions are phrased and what the background of the people might be. For example, how many of the 2/3rds of Americans even know what the ToE states? From my experience on this board it would be none of them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by CK, posted 08-31-2005 5:35 AM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by CK, posted 08-31-2005 6:12 AM Mammuthus has replied
 Message 27 by paisano, posted 08-31-2005 8:10 AM Mammuthus has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 20 of 253 (238851)
08-31-2005 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Mammuthus
08-31-2005 6:07 AM


Re: Creation in School
On a sidenote, this article sort of sums up part of the problem:
BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | The struggle over science
quote:
Like others I spoke with, he is less concerned with the international league tables and the familiar salami processes of the budget, than the well-documented readiness of the Bush administration to manipulate and suppress scientific findings - manifestly to appease industrial interests and religious constituencies.
This is not just on global warming and stem cells, currently in the news, but on a whole range of issues - lead and mercury poisoning in children, women's health, birth control, safety standards for drinking water, forest management, air pollution and on and on.
"It's disturbing," Professor Lane told me. "This is the first time to the best of my knowledge through successive Republican and Democratic administrations, that the issue of scientific integrity has reared its head."
I cannot think of the name but there is a sci-fi book where America ends up as a nation where only pre-newtonian physics is taught and allowed - that's where the country seems to going.
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 31-Aug-2005 06:14 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Mammuthus, posted 08-31-2005 6:07 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Mammuthus, posted 08-31-2005 6:43 AM CK has replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 21 of 253 (238863)
08-31-2005 6:43 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by CK
08-31-2005 6:12 AM


Re: Creation in School
Unfortunately, I don't think America is isolated in this case. There is a strong creationist/IDist movement in Germany as well. Possibly even worse because one of the biggest name microbiology professors in Munich is an IDist and he has influence over school text books.
I also doubt that the Bush admin is the first to manipulate, disregard, or lie about scientific results. They are novel in not trying to conceal it (unless you call the retarded propaganda they use concealment). Industry will always have a strong motivation to conceal or deny scientific results if it hurts their profits..look at the tobacco industry. If the admin is in their sphere of influence, it will become a branch of their propaganda/advertising department.
I think the problem is cumulative. An increasingly uninformed public leaves any administration open to do whatever they want without justification or fear of being questioned.
I would have to see the numbers of the total number of US citizens who are achieving advanced degrees in science over several decades before I would conclude that there has been such a tectonic shift in the US...or a dramatic decrease in scientific competitiveness...if this starts to appear over the next decade then your sci-fi novels plot may come to pass.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by CK, posted 08-31-2005 6:12 AM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by CK, posted 08-31-2005 6:47 AM Mammuthus has not replied
 Message 28 by paisano, posted 08-31-2005 8:20 AM Mammuthus has replied
 Message 33 by Nuggin, posted 08-31-2005 11:10 AM Mammuthus has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 22 of 253 (238866)
08-31-2005 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Mammuthus
08-31-2005 6:43 AM


Re: Creation in School
quote:
I would have to see the numbers of the total number of US citizens who are achieving advanced degrees in science over several decades before I would conclude that there has been such a tectonic shift in the US.
I don't know about "several decades" but hasn't every survey about HE shown that the take-up of the "hard" sciences has declined year on year? It's certainly the case here in the UK.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Mammuthus, posted 08-31-2005 6:43 AM Mammuthus has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 23 of 253 (238867)
08-31-2005 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by randman
08-31-2005 2:27 AM


Re: rhetoric like a brick wall
Sometimes you gotta take a step back and take stock of things. I don't believe 2/3rds of Americans are mere dupes. Sorry, but the old there is no issue isn't holding.
You're right randman. Public opinion should dictate what is taught in schools. In fact, Public Opinion should dictate everything, on all levels!
Let's let the public decide what operations and drugs are to be used in hospitals, those closed minded doctors never listen to the people. Let's let the public decide on building codes, with no interference from those pesky structural engineers. Let's let the public lay out the power grid, let's let them dictate how the city sewage system will work. Let's let the public run the air traffic control system. Let's let the public dictate what equipment police should have and what they should be taught in police academy. Let's let the public establish the safety standards for automobiles. Let public opinion dictate what foods the FDA allows to pass.
The public has no voice in any of these matters, nor should they! They vote on elected officials that in turn hire EXPERTS in the given field to manage it. If a power grid needs to be laid out, the people vote for the county commissioner who in turn puts someone in charge of hiring a skilled civil engineer to work with a reputable power company to design a stable/efficient grid. Likewise, we vote for a competent school administrator who in turn hires competent principals that hire competent teachers who TEACH the prevailing SCIENCE of the day. That's what they go to school for randman! Just like the civil engineer! These people spend their lives dedicated to their craft and as such, will ALLWAYS know more than the public at large about the given issue.
The statistic as given (if valid) is only an affirmation of the above. Thank goodness the public dosn't have say in every institution, nothing would work.
Your stance is asinine.
ABE: To further support my above statements, as well as to respond to a previous randman post:
We live in a democratic republic, and moreover parents should have a say in the schools they and the public pay for, in educating their children. If 2/3s of the public want a topic presented alongside evolution, then it's only going to create backlash if those wishes are ignored.
That's right! We live in a republic! What does this mean?
republic Pronunciation Key (r-pblk)
n.
...
2.
1. A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them.
2. A nation that has such a political order.
Yep, we elect officers and representatives to make choices for us. We don't tell them what to do directly.
This message has been edited by Yaro, 08-31-2005 07:13 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 24 of 253 (238880)
08-31-2005 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Mammuthus
08-31-2005 5:12 AM


Re: Creation in School
Is their faith so shallow that they fear people learning the "alternatives" in school?
Ramen, brother.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Mammuthus, posted 08-31-2005 5:12 AM Mammuthus has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 25 of 253 (238885)
08-31-2005 7:35 AM


Crazy Conspiracy
So, how come it's only the biological science community that is involved in some sort of suppresive conspiracy surrounding Evolution?
I mean, why aren't any othe fields of science being accused of such actions. Why isn't there a global conspiracy of indoctrinated physisits, doctors, etc.? Why aren't any other fields of science being accused of deception, and suppression of knowledge?
It seems so obvious that this whole "Creation Science" thing is nothing more than a bunch of insecure christians having their ignorance rubbed off. Sorry guys, the truth hurts, we came from a common ancestor, deal with it.

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by TheLiteralist, posted 09-01-2005 6:56 AM Yaro has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 26 of 253 (238894)
08-31-2005 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by randman
08-31-2005 2:27 AM


Re: rhetoric like a brick wall
I don't believe 2/3rds of Americans are mere dupes.
Americans believe in fair play. Because of a massively dishonest public relations campaign, they think that fair play is involved here.
The evolutionists lost.
Long term, the religious right will lose. It will eventually become obvious to most people that there is no science in ID. Once that sinks in, people will realize that they have been lied to by the RR.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by randman, posted 08-31-2005 2:27 AM randman has not replied

  
paisano
Member (Idle past 6423 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 27 of 253 (238897)
08-31-2005 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Mammuthus
08-31-2005 6:07 AM


Re: Creation in School
There are a lot of problems with these types of polls..especially how the questions are phrased and what the background of the people might be. For example, how many of the 2/3rds of Americans even know what the ToE states? From my experience on this board it would be none of them.
I suspect that the polling question was worded in such a way as to appeal to the American sense of fair play . I suspect the "yes" response to a generic question like "If there is a controversy, both sides should get to make their case" would be greater than 2/3.
I wonder what the response would be to a generic question like "Religious groups should get to use public school science classrooms as vehicles to present religious doctrines" ?
This message has been edited by paisano, 08-31-2005 08:10 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Mammuthus, posted 08-31-2005 6:07 AM Mammuthus has not replied

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paisano
Member (Idle past 6423 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 28 of 253 (238899)
08-31-2005 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Mammuthus
08-31-2005 6:43 AM


Re: Creation in School
Industry will always have a strong motivation to conceal or deny scientific results if it hurts their profits..look at the tobacco industry.
True enough, but creationism or bad science in a generalized sense would hurt the profits of the tobacco industry, as well as the medical device, pharmaceutical, oil, and aerospace industry. Which is why, IMO, it won't prevail in the long run. Evetuually the cocktails at the club wing of the Republican Party will split from the religious right wing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Mammuthus, posted 08-31-2005 6:43 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Mammuthus, posted 08-31-2005 8:26 AM paisano has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 29 of 253 (238902)
08-31-2005 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
08-31-2005 1:44 AM


quote:
I think evos ought to consider that just maybe the reason so many think creationism has some validity is not due to ignorance, blind faith, etc
On reading the article and seeing:
The poll found that 42 percent of respondents held strict creationist views, agreeing that "living things have existed in their present form since the beginning of time."
and
38 percent favored replacing evolution with creationism.
I have to ask why we should not consider it likely that ignorance and blind faith did not play a major role in the results.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by randman, posted 08-31-2005 1:44 AM randman has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 30 of 253 (238903)
08-31-2005 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by paisano
08-31-2005 8:10 AM


Re: Creation in School
There has been a quite interesting debate in the media about the use of "balance" and how it should be applied. Many organizations have taken this to mean that all ideas should be presented as if they have equal validity regards of the actual merits of the idea.
So you get the nonsense where creationism is presented in the same manner as Flying Spaghetti Monsterism.
your touched by his noodly appendage
Charles
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 31-Aug-2005 08:27 AM

This message is a reply to:
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