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Author Topic:   Hurricane Katrina
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 136 of 315 (239695)
09-01-2005 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Nuggin
09-01-2005 4:33 PM


Re: Sniper fire
Its a bad situation. check this story out.
Denver Post writes:
Fights and trash fires broke out at the hot and stinking Superdome and anger and unrest mounted across New Orleans on Thursday, as National Guardsmen in armored vehicles poured in to help restore order across the increasingly lawless and desperate city. We are out here like pure animals. We don't have help, the Rev. Issac Clark, 68, said outside the New Orleans Convention Center, where corpses lay in the open and evacuees complained that they were dropped off and given nothing.
And consider if another hurricane hits this year with similar fury. It is not directed at humanity by a wrathful God. It is simply the weather.
It will cause some people to find God, and it will cause others to run from Him. (methaphorically and spiritually) One protestor had a point, though:
"You can do everything for other countries but you can't do nothing for your own people. You can go overseas with the military but you can't get them down here."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Nuggin, posted 09-01-2005 4:33 PM Nuggin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by CK, posted 09-01-2005 4:42 PM Phat has replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 137 of 315 (239696)
09-01-2005 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Phat
09-01-2005 4:39 PM


Re: Sniper fire
You christians must be rubbing your hands with glee at all the recruiting you can do with desperate broken homeless people.
(and yes that is harsh).
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 01-Sep-2005 04:43 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Phat, posted 09-01-2005 4:39 PM Phat has replied

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 Message 138 by Phat, posted 09-01-2005 4:57 PM CK has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 138 of 315 (239705)
09-01-2005 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by CK
09-01-2005 4:42 PM


Re: Sniper fire
CK writes:
You christians must be rubbing your hands with glee at all the recruiting you can do with desperate broken homeless people.
Actually, we have our hands full attempting to recruit contented,
smug, affluent people. Besides...we just run our mouths...the Boss does the recruiting!

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 Message 137 by CK, posted 09-01-2005 4:42 PM CK has not replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 139 of 315 (239715)
09-01-2005 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by deerbreh
09-01-2005 4:09 PM


Re: I'd be more careful about mocking God
deerbrah, lots of people converse with God. It's called prayer.
Oral Robers was or is an evangelist. You can criticize him all you want, but he's never been considered a prophet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by deerbreh, posted 09-01-2005 4:09 PM deerbreh has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Nuggin, posted 09-01-2005 5:56 PM randman has replied

Brad
Member (Idle past 4787 days)
Posts: 143
From: Portland OR, USA
Joined: 01-26-2004


Message 140 of 315 (239731)
09-01-2005 5:55 PM


Berberry
A few pages back it was asked where Berberry was...um...where are you??? I hope you're alright.

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 141 of 315 (239732)
09-01-2005 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by randman
09-01-2005 5:08 PM


Re: I'd be more careful about mocking God
"Millions of people throughout the world consider Oral Roberts a prophet of God.
Error Page
For you to discount "millions of people" here, while still arguing that majority rule should be the basis of education in another thread is a little odd

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by randman, posted 09-01-2005 5:08 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by randman, posted 09-01-2005 7:31 PM Nuggin has not replied

Monk
Member (Idle past 3924 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 142 of 315 (239748)
09-01-2005 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by crashfrog
08-31-2005 6:06 PM


Louisiana without clout
why shouldn't Bush be blamed for this?
I’ll avoid the liberals blame Bush mantra and only deal in specifics as to why Bush shouldn’t be blamed for the disaster. Your article written by blogger Blumenthal only tells part of the story and leaves the conclusion that its all Bush’s fault. You can Google all sorts of articles that paint Bush as responsible for allowing flooding because of budget cuts. But the truth of the matter is rarely reported.
One could easily argue that the threat to New Orleans has been known for many years dating back to the flood of 1927 and more recently to the flooding from hurricane Betsy in 1965. Does it make sense to blame LBJ, Carter and Clinton for knowing about the impending disaster in New Orleans and yet do nothing about it? Of course not and neither does blaming Bush.
There are two distinct issues at hand. The first is emergency preparadness in which first responders in New Orleans are woefully inadequate. That blame rests on local and State officials and perhaps FEMA. But this issue is not part of my response here. My response deals with the breach of the levee system and how that could have been prevented.
First, it helps to understand a little bit about the levee system and who is responsible for it. The system is controlled and maintained by the Orleans Levee District in concert with the New Orleans District Corps of Engineers.
quote:
The Orleans Levee District is responsible for the maintenance of 129 miles of levees and floodwalls, 190 floodgates, 100 flood valves, and two flood control structures. To enhance flood protection, the District, and the United States Army Corps of Engineers (USACE), participate and cost share in several joint flood protection projects relative to the Lake Pontchartrain and Vicinity Hurricane Protection Plan. The District is funded primarily by two millages: 5.46 mills authorize in the Louisiana Constitution and 6.44 mills authorized in a general election. Source
So funding for the levee is only partially from fed funds via the USACE, the balance is through state and local mill levies,(taxes). Cutting USACE funding would only affect a portion of the overall Orleans Levee budget. Still, the estimated $70 million shortfall certainly had an impact on several projects as well as routine maintenance issues. But, that amount would not be nearly enough to provide the final funding necessary to solve New Orleans flood issues.
It is true that the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project (SELA) was formed after the deaths in 1995. SELA has continued their effort to strengthen and renovate the levees.
quote:
Technical reports were prepared in April 1996 and May 1996 to identify the initial work to be implemented under the SELA project authority. These technical reports, which were approved in October 1996, were the basis of the Project Cooperation Agreements (PCAs) for Jefferson and Orleans Parishes that were executed on January 16, 1997 and January 23, 1997. Source
These reports framed the scope of work for the SELA projects. Here is the progress, (as of 3/24/05).
quote:
In Orleans Parish, nine contracts have been awarded, seven are complete, two are underway, and one remains to be awarded. Most of the remaining contracts had been scheduled for award in fiscal year 2003; however, funding limitations have prevented moving forward with those contracts. Overall, the currently scheduled work in Orleans and Jefferson Parishes is about 70 percent complete and should be finished in 2008. Source
The article discusses funding limitations, sure, but the majority of work (70%) has been completed. Even if the work had been 100% complete in time for Katrina and all $70 million had been spent, this effort would have been to maintain and improve a levee design based on a fast moving Cat 3 Hurricane.
The levee system was not designed to handle a Cat 4 or 5 Hurricane. Period. It would not have mattered one bit whether all work by SELA or the Orleans Levee District had been completed, the devastation would have been the same.
Didn’t the politicians and professionals realize this? Sure they did. Many agencies had been conducting studies for years on the projected effects of a Cat 5 Hurricane in New Orleans:
quote:
Scientists from the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and Louisiana State University have issued a number of studies in the past several years indicating that these levees no longer provide protection to the sinking city, and that another direct hit by a strong hurricane would contribute to catastrophe.
A computer simulation of a direct hit by a category four hurricane projected that New Orleans would be submerged in flood water turned toxic by chemicals, fuel, debris, and corpses. In this worst case scenario, tens of thousands of residents trapped in the bowl of the city could die and many thousands more would be stranded in the cesspool. Source
Many people from a variety of State and Federal Agencies predicted the disaster including Al Naomi, senior project manager for the Corps of Engineers.
quote:
It's possible to protect New Orleans from a Category 5 hurricane," said Al Naomi, "But we've got to start. To do nothing is tantamount to negligence.
So if everybody knew the disaster was only a matter of time why was nothing done?
The answer is simple, political clout. Or in the case of Louisiana, a lack of political clout to secure home town public works projects.
The appropriations committee in Congress decides how much funds are to be allocated to the USACE. Bush can recommend a budget, but ultimately it’s up to the appropriations committee to decide the final amount.
quote:
The Appropriations Committee in Congress will ultimately decide how much the New Orleans district {USACE}will receive. Obviously, the decisions are being made up there that are not beneficial to the state, in my opinion, Naomi said. Let's put it this way: When (former Rep.) Bob Livingston (R-Metairie) was chairman of the Appropriations Committee, we didn't have a monetary problem. Our problem was how do we spend all the money we were getting. Source
It would have been far easier for the USACE to get that $70 million shortfall if Louisiana still had political clout on the appropriations committee as they did when Livingston was chairman. But again, we are only speaking of $70 million dollars.
If this amount were adequate to upgrade the levee system and remediate the wetlands in the surrounding area, then Bush and congress would have been directly responsible.
The truth is that $70 million is a small drop in the bucket compared to the true cost to upgrade the protection surrounding New Orleans in order to prevent a Cat 5 disaster.
quote:
The cost of undertaking disaster prevention was declared by a panel of federal agency and business community representatives to be prohibitively expensive$14 billion. Instead, the city opted to commission the Army Corp of Engineers to reinforce the levee system to withstand a category three hurricane for $740 million. Source
The cost to prevent a Cat 5 hurricane would run on the order of $14 billion. How many politicians in Washington could successfully lobby for a multi-billion dollar, multi-year project of this magnitude in their home State? Not many at all. Only Senators like Ted Kennedy and John Kerry could pull it off and they did when Massachusetts was awarded the Big Dig project in Boston. That’s a $14.6 billion, 12 year project. This is the project magnitude necessary for New Orleans.
I’m not saying there is anything wrong with what Kennedy and Kerry did. They acted as they were elected to do, to represent the people of Massachusetts.
Louisiana, on the other hand, had no representatives with that sort of political clout and so the project had no chance of moving forward. Now that death and destruction is evident to everyone, that the strategic importance of New Orleans as a port and oil industry hub is obvious, Louisiana will finally get the Cat 5 protection it has needed for more than 40 years.
There are those who say that if the US had not spent $200 billion in Iraq we would have easily been able to pay for a mere $14 billion for New Orleans. That statement is no more valid than saying the Big Dig price tag of $14.6 billion dollars should have gone to New Orleans because that project would save lives instead of just reducing Boston’s commuter travel time.
Those arguments do not take into account political realities. If the US had not spent $200 billion in Iraq, there is absolutely no reason to believe any of that money would have gone to a $14 billion project in south Louisiana. There simply wasn’t enough political clout or national exposure to force the issue. Until now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by crashfrog, posted 08-31-2005 6:06 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by dsv, posted 09-01-2005 7:05 PM Monk has replied
 Message 144 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2005 7:20 PM Monk has replied

dsv
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 143 of 315 (239760)
09-01-2005 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Monk
09-01-2005 6:27 PM


Re: Louisiana without clout
That's great... call your friend Bush up and tell him to order massive drop shipping of water and supplies. Don't fuck around, just drop some god damn supplies. There are people starving to death. There's elderly people that are dead in their wheelchairs at the designated "rescue" points waiting. There's babies dying of thirst in their mother's arms.
I know everyone is in freaking Iraq but give me a break. There's choppers out there. This should be a full on effort. What happened to all the "We're the US fing A" attitude?
I don't care about what Bush did or didn't do about preventing the situation. Clearly his response is unacceptable at this point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Monk, posted 09-01-2005 6:27 PM Monk has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by randman, posted 09-01-2005 7:32 PM dsv has not replied
 Message 155 by Monk, posted 09-01-2005 9:14 PM dsv has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 144 of 315 (239765)
09-01-2005 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Monk
09-01-2005 6:27 PM


Re: Louisiana without clout, President Botch without a plan ... again!
monk writes:
One could easily argue that the threat to New Orleans has been known for many years dating back to the flood of 1927 and more recently to the flooding from hurricane Betsy in 1965. Does it make sense to blame LBJ, Carter and Clinton for knowing about the impending disaster in New Orleans and yet do nothing about it? Of course not and neither does blaming Bush.
Yes, and I do. I blame everyone that has ignored the very plain warning of Hurricane Camille (1969), and it is inconceivable to me that there has been no plan for such a hurricane throughout the south: NO, Mobile, what's the difference? There should be a plan in place to allow the rapid evacuation of everyone.
There are two distinct issues at hand. The first is emergency preparadness in which first responders in New Orleans are woefully inadequate. That blame rests on local and State officials and perhaps FEMA.
Actually, in this "post 9/11 world" where we have a whole new federal agency of Homeland Security to consider all kind of attacks on every square inch of the USof(N)A and from all kinds of speculative causes of mass destruction ...
... one of the FIRST priorities would be the rapid, controlled, managed evacuation of people from any city, but most especially the vulnerable large urban hubs of commerce, like each of the major ports along all the coasts of the USof(N)A.
All they needed to do was require states and cities to come up with plans and have them on hand, and then it is just a matter of turning the key to implement such a plan.
And what we come to find was ...
... there was no plan. Nobody even thought to think of a plan.
And yes, I can blame President Botch for that. He had the mechanism to make it possible, and I would have applauded had that been the case, but he gets no slack for doing nothing.
Enjoy.
ps - I don't argue with the rest of your post: perhaps if we elected ordinary people instead of self-interested politicians ....

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Monk, posted 09-01-2005 6:27 PM Monk has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Nuggin, posted 09-01-2005 7:26 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 156 by Monk, posted 09-01-2005 9:26 PM RAZD has replied

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 145 of 315 (239768)
09-01-2005 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by RAZD
09-01-2005 7:20 PM


Re: Louisiana without clout, President Botch without a plan ... again!
Personally, I think Bush was under the impression that the people of New Orleans would greet us as liberators

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2005 7:20 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2005 9:13 PM Nuggin has not replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 146 of 315 (239772)
09-01-2005 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Nuggin
09-01-2005 5:56 PM


Re: I'd be more careful about mocking God
Nuggin, that's one person claiming millions consider him a prophet. I can say I have only heard of him being described as an evangelist, not a prophet, and I have heard him describe himself as an evangelist.
A web-site can say anything it wants. It has no credibility.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Nuggin, posted 09-01-2005 5:56 PM Nuggin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2005 7:34 PM randman has not replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 147 of 315 (239773)
09-01-2005 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by dsv
09-01-2005 7:05 PM


Re: Louisiana without clout
Agreed. It is unacceptable. I cannot figure out why they haven't airlifted supplies or sent in the Marines either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by dsv, posted 09-01-2005 7:05 PM dsv has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 148 of 315 (239774)
09-01-2005 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by randman
09-01-2005 7:31 PM


Re: I'd be more careful about mocking God
A web-site can say anything it wants. It has no credibility.
bookmarked.
I agree that he is not a prophet. Of course I would also agree with a statement that there are NO prophets ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by randman, posted 09-01-2005 7:31 PM randman has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 315 (239781)
09-01-2005 7:51 PM


miniscule contributions
I haven't been following this thread closely, so I apologize if I am repeating information here.
Having just written a check to the American Red Cross, I was searching for other ways to contribute to the relief effort. I don't know how emergency management works, but my guess is that most of the relief is going to go to business interests and the middle class -- I bet that the poor are going to get a pittance. Well, it seems that Habitat For Humanity is gearing up to help.
I realize that the money I am donating is a mere pittance compared to what's needed, but what else can one do? Any other suggestions for NGOs that will be helping along the Gulf Coast would be appreciated.

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 150 of 315 (239789)
09-01-2005 8:12 PM


security in New Orleans
In response to a question at an interview, the head of FEMA said that security in New Orleans was "very good."

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by RAZD, posted 09-01-2005 9:01 PM robinrohan has not replied

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