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Author Topic:   Hurricane Katrina
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 196 of 315 (239954)
09-02-2005 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Monk
09-02-2005 12:41 PM


Re: Mayor Lashes out at Feds
The Federal government’s job in these type of disasters is to assist local and state officials.
That's not exactly accurate. In major disasters, just as in wartime, the federal gov't has the capability of acting independently. For example if Cuba invaded NO, the Feds would not have to call the mayor or governor to see what is needed.
I am a big proponent of state and local power over federal power, but national scale crises (and one must remember this is more than just a one state issue) calls for federal level responses, at the very least in the immediate term where local resources will obviously be pushed to the breaking point and further.
And what does Mayor Ray Nagin have to say for himself? Other than point fingers, he might say something like:
Why on earth should he say that when he is talking about what to do NOW? As far as I could tell he was discussing reponse problems, not preventative issues.
He can certainly be blamed, or take blame, later regarding prevention. In response he seems to have done what he can do and is asking for help.
So far Bush has planned photo ops for himself. I remember 9/11, now I can point to this. When can we (as a nation) admit this president is wholly incapable of responding to emergencies?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Monk, posted 09-02-2005 12:41 PM Monk has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by randman, posted 09-02-2005 1:03 PM Silent H has replied
 Message 200 by Monk, posted 09-02-2005 1:14 PM Silent H has replied
 Message 205 by Lizard Breath, posted 09-02-2005 2:50 PM Silent H has replied
 Message 222 by RAZD, posted 09-02-2005 7:11 PM Silent H has not replied

jsmall
Inactive Member


Message 197 of 315 (239955)
09-02-2005 12:59 PM


Where's god now?
Americans take so much for granted b/c life is so easy for the majority of us. We close our eyes to the poverty and near-3rd-world conditions in ou own backyards. We forget that just over 100 years ago 1/2 of babies born here died before their 1st birthday. One half!
It's so easy to believe in a loving, caring god when you are praying for a better job instead of any job. Or praying for a healthy baby instead of praying that you survive the birth while living in a remote village hours from any medical help.
Now that babies are dying in the streets of New Orleans, old people are dying in their wheelchairs, and children are being raped, I hope some of them will realize that they are on their own. There is no heavenly help. None at all. It's up to the government to help. The same government that the right-wing loonies are hoping to shrink small enough to sink in a bathtub. Well, you may have just gotten your wish. And good 'ol Bush gets on the air and the 1st thing he has to say is that Daddy and Clinton will seek PRIVATE funds to help out.
So it's up to god and private citizens to help the afflicted tens of thousands of refugees. Things aren't looking so good for them.

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by randman, posted 09-02-2005 1:06 PM jsmall has not replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 198 of 315 (239957)
09-02-2005 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Silent H
09-02-2005 12:54 PM


Re: Mayor Lashes out at Feds
Actually, I think Bush responded to 911 fine, but he Guiliani and Pataki to take care of the immediate responses.
Bush is not a fast mover. He and his adminstration tend to respond slowly to things, even if the campaign. That can be good at times, but is not good at times like this.
One thing that should come out of this is that we need to rehaul FEMA. Remove it from the Homeland Security folks. Beg the former managers that left to come back.
Id even suggest making it more like the Fed, and quasi-independent agency with it's heads appointed by the president. That way, if FEMA messes up again, the heads can all be fired, and the public will demand action, but if they go back to doing the great jobs they did in the past, they will be lauded, and can become a respected institution.
Merging it with Homeland Security beaurocracy has been terrible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Silent H, posted 09-02-2005 12:54 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Silent H, posted 09-02-2005 2:31 PM randman has not replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 199 of 315 (239958)
09-02-2005 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by jsmall
09-02-2005 12:59 PM


Re: Where's god now?
Actually, people tend to believe in God more when life is tough. You got it backwards, and you are wrong as well.
You can't depend on the government as this crisis shows. You can depend on God, but God is not going to exempt you or this world from tragedy.
Keep in mind a big reason for this mess is putting FEMA under Homeland Security, which is something the democrats wanted. It's not small government advocates creating the mess, but the Big Gov types, and remember Bush is not right wing. He is Big Gov as well and greatly expanded the beaurocracy, as liberals and dems wanted, after 911 to respond to emergencies.
That's the problem though. We have plenty of resources, but the institutions handling this stuff are so bloated, so beaurocratic, that they cannot be as effective.
This message has been edited by randman, 09-02-2005 01:08 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by jsmall, posted 09-02-2005 12:59 PM jsmall has not replied

Monk
Member (Idle past 3924 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 200 of 315 (239960)
09-02-2005 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Silent H
09-02-2005 12:54 PM


Re: Mayor Lashes out at Feds
That's not exactly accurate. In major disasters, just as in wartime, the federal gov't has the capability of acting independently. For example if Cuba invaded NO, the Feds would not have to call the mayor or governor to see what is needed.
We are talking natural disasters here. Its simply not reasonable for local or state officials to plan for an invasion from Cuba. Absurd analogy. It IS, on the other hand, entirely reasonable and expected for state and local officials to plan for Hurricanes in Louisiana. They have been known to hit there from time to time.
Yes, the Feds can act independently, but it would be irresponsible NOT to coordinate efforts with the major’s or governor’s office. The state and local officials, their staff, police, rescue workers, fire fighters, EMT’s, etc. are all on the scene first.
They are there in the city at ground zero. They know the immediate situation, they know the city, the lay of the land, how best to navigate through the city, and on and on. That resource is vital to any rescue effort.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Silent H, posted 09-02-2005 12:54 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Silent H, posted 09-02-2005 2:44 PM Monk has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 201 of 315 (239966)
09-02-2005 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by dsv
09-02-2005 9:03 AM


Re: Louisiana without clout
Just look at the way President Bush senior handled hurricane Andrew
Actually, Andrew wasn't handled all that well either. But in any case, Andrew was a much simpler problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by dsv, posted 09-02-2005 9:03 AM dsv has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 202 of 315 (239995)
09-02-2005 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by randman
09-02-2005 1:03 PM


Re: Mayor Lashes out at Feds
I think Bush responded to 911 fine, but he Guiliani and Pataki to take care of the immediate responses.
As much as I dislike Guiliani, he was fantastic in a crisis. Pataki was okay. Bush was worthless.
One thing that should come out of this is that we need to rehaul FEMA. Remove it from the Homeland Security folks. Beg the former managers that left to come back.
I don't think its being within HS is necessarily the problem. It is how it is allowed to operate within HS which would be the problem.
Id even suggest making it more like the Fed, and quasi-independent agency with it's heads appointed by the president. That way, if FEMA messes up again, the heads can all be fired, and the public will demand action, but if they go back to doing the great jobs they did in the past, they will be lauded, and can become a respected institution.
The irony in this is well noted. Be appointed by a guy that screws up and you can be fired for screwing up. Be a screw up that does the appointing and you are safe.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by randman, posted 09-02-2005 1:03 PM randman has not replied

roxrkool
Member (Idle past 989 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 203 of 315 (240001)
09-02-2005 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by RAZD
08-31-2005 8:34 PM


No apologies necessary. I didn't want to get into an argument about something I was not entirely sure about. I had not heard of any organized evacuation assistance to the poor, but I wasn't positive.
I'm stunned as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by RAZD, posted 08-31-2005 8:34 PM RAZD has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 204 of 315 (240004)
09-02-2005 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Monk
09-02-2005 1:14 PM


Re: Mayor Lashes out at Feds
We are talking natural disasters here. Its simply not reasonable for local or state officials to plan for an invasion from Cuba. Absurd analogy. It IS, on the other hand, entirely reasonable and expected for state and local officials to plan for Hurricanes in Louisiana. They have been known to hit there from time to time.
Notice that you have once again confused planning (prevention) with response. Whether or not the state an city had planned for an invasion, if one occured the feds could move in regardless. That goes double when it appears the local and state gov'ts have been overwhelmed. Same goes for a natural disaster.
Yes, the Feds can act independently, but it would be irresponsible NOT to coordinate efforts with the major’s or governor’s office. The state and local officials, their staff, police, rescue workers, fire fighters, EMT’s, etc. are all on the scene first.
You are correct that it would be irresponsible not to coordinate efforts. Now lets deal with the reality here. What could they possibly do at the fed level that would hinder operations underway by the state and local gov'ts? Those entities are already despairing (quite publicly) that they have coordination problems in and of themselves due to their isolated and overwhelmed conditions.
At this point the feds stepping in could allow for coordination which does not currently exist.
I might add that the issue holding up federal response at this time does not appear to be "coordination" issues. That is that they are busy trying to coordinate efforts and so that is the entirety of the holdup. You yourself appeared to be claiming it was priority issues.
They are there in the city at ground zero. They know the immediate situation, they know the city, the lay of the land, how best to navigate through the city, and on and on.
They are overwhelmed. They said so. The time to act was back when they said so... at the very latest.
Let me point out something. This was a natural disaster with at least a little bit of warning. A major terrorist attack (the kind Bush keeps using as a bogeyman), would be the exact same thing, only with no warning. Indeed it could involve the exact same issues, flooding and power outages, leaving immense numbers homeless and starving.
Are you saying that if a dirty bomb was used in a city as well as perhaps some reservoirs so as to produce the same results, it would make sense that the feds would wait to see what happens on the ground?
Heck at the very least Bush could have been preparing the resources which might be needed in anticipation of any requests.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Monk, posted 09-02-2005 1:14 PM Monk has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Monk, posted 09-02-2005 4:16 PM Silent H has replied

Lizard Breath
Member (Idle past 6696 days)
Posts: 376
Joined: 10-19-2003


Message 205 of 315 (240007)
09-02-2005 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Silent H
09-02-2005 12:54 PM


Re: Mayor Lashes out at Feds
So far Bush has planned photo ops for himself. I remember 9/11, now I can point to this. When can we (as a nation) admit this president is wholly incapable of responding to emergencies?
I don't know where you are right now but you are definitlely not in the midst of the relief efforts. You obviously cannot see the tremendous effort being made to transport hospital patients and the retired and elderly out of the affected zones. Aircraft are and have been scrambled to accomplish this since the storm hit.
You don't have a clue as to what it takes to get safetly set up to pull this off. What you will be seeing in the next few days is a dramatic change in the response effectivness now that we are set up and transporting the people rapidly to other hospitals in other regions of the country.
It's sad that you can observe only what your political bias allows you to and then shoot your mouth off about it as if it were fact. I bet you are getting most of your information from the news media who also hate this government. You should come to one of our Forward Base of Operations and see what kind of difficulties that we are dealing with and how rapidly these hurdles are being dispensed.
I know that even if you could see the effort that we are giving in this, you would find a way to discount it and come up with some other item to blame George Bush about. As you say -
this president is wholly incapable of responding to emergencies
You and the rest of your bunch of Granola tye-dyed pony tail flip flop wearing wanna bee's should take some time to think it through on how to pull off an airlift evacuation of hospital patients out of a zone like this. If you can do it better, then type it in here. If you know for sure what President Bush did wrong in how he initiated the effort, then type it in here. If all you know is what you see in the media, then go stand in front of a mirror and say "Wow, I'm so much smarter than everyone else".
So far Bush has planned photo ops for himself
If he hadn't shown up down here, you'ld be bitching that he wasn't being a visable leader in the midst of the chaos. As for the many in my unit who are reading your posts besides myself, you don't fool anyone by acting like you are credible with your critiques, which are nothing more that political jibes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Silent H, posted 09-02-2005 12:54 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Silent H, posted 09-02-2005 3:17 PM Lizard Breath has replied

Lizard Breath
Member (Idle past 6696 days)
Posts: 376
Joined: 10-19-2003


Message 206 of 315 (240010)
09-02-2005 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by randman
09-01-2005 10:26 PM


Re: Louisiana without clout
What we needed down there was some strong leadership commandeering forces to evacuate all of the people, and to have 10,000 or more armed troops, 101st and Marines, and tell them to shoot anyone looting, except for grocery stores, which imo is not really looting since the food would go bad anyway and the people need supplies.
When you say "we", I assume that you are in some form of military command and control position. So tell me how you would go about moving the 101 and the Marines into position while still spooling up to move 60,000 people out, who where unable to move themselves prior to the disaster.
We all in my unit would love to read all about you genius plans. Dazzle us.
This message has been edited by Lizard Breath, 09-02-2005 03:02 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by randman, posted 09-01-2005 10:26 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by randman, posted 09-02-2005 3:28 PM Lizard Breath has not replied
 Message 209 by dsv, posted 09-02-2005 3:38 PM Lizard Breath has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 207 of 315 (240020)
09-02-2005 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Lizard Breath
09-02-2005 2:50 PM


Re: Mayor Lashes out at Feds
You don't have a clue as to what it takes to get safetly set up to pull this off. What you will be seeing in the next few days is a dramatic change in the response effectivness now that we are set up and transporting the people rapidly to other hospitals in other regions of the country.
A dramatic change would be great. I have not dissed the efforts being made. I haved been critical, based on the comments from people on the ground, and reports of what Bush is doing, from his own mouth. Notice that I am not the only person that has been critical.
It's sad that you can observe only what your political bias allows you to and then shoot your mouth off about it as if it were fact.
I hate the fact that political hacks continue to twist any practical criticism into something about political bias. I just got done saying that despite my loathing of Guiliani, I thought his response was fantastic during 911.
I respect results and leadership, regardless of its political base. Oh yeah and by the way genius mindreader that you are, I am not a democrat and so have no political bias against G Bush. I actually prefered him over Gore in 2000, and could vote Rep in 2008 depending on who they put up.
I know that even if you could see the effort that we are giving in this, you would find a way to discount it and come up with some other item to blame George Bush
You would be wrong.
You and the rest of your bunch of Granola tye-dyed pony tail flip flop wearing wanna bee's should take some time to think it through on how to pull off an airlift evacuation of hospital patients out of a zone like this.
Your mischaracterization is noted. Build another strawman.
If you know for sure what President Bush did wrong in how he initiated the effort, then type it in here.
Sure, he didn't. His first belated arrangements appear to be flyovers for press and morale uses.
If he hadn't shown up down here, you'ld be bitching that he wasn't being a visable leader in the midst of the chaos
Not if arrangements were being made in a timely and efficient manner I wouldn't.
As for the many in my unit who are reading your posts besides myself, you don't fool anyone by acting like you are credible with your critiques, which are nothing more that political jibes.
Wow, wtf are you and members of your unit doing reading the posts of some "pony tailed" jerk like me, much less responding to them, when there are all those people to be helping?
But if all of them are reading perhaps you can get one to browse through and read the posts which explain that I AM NOT A DEMOCRATIC AND HAVE NO POLITICAL OPPOSITION TO REPUBLICANS, even Bush!
My opposition to him has been his repeated failures to act in a constructive way to challenges he is presented with. That's how I went from slightly supporting him (I'd have prefered McCain) to no longer liking him.
If you are going to attempt character assassination in the future, at least try and identify your target.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Lizard Breath, posted 09-02-2005 2:50 PM Lizard Breath has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Lizard Breath, posted 09-02-2005 7:20 PM Silent H has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 208 of 315 (240024)
09-02-2005 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Lizard Breath
09-02-2005 3:01 PM


Re: Louisiana without clout
Sure. Since we knew it was a Cat 5, we should have looked to see what forces were closer, and had them on standby to deploy to the city via trucks (after being flown to Lousiana after the storm), and through boats and landing craft if available. But first we should have airlifted troops in there, and had them deploy throughout the city to keep order and deliver instructions.
On the same vehicles, whether trucks, boats, or helicopters that we brought troops in, we should have filled them back up with people and of course, some troops remaining and brought those people to relief centers, military bases, and naval ships, with instructions on where to deliver people well enough to travel to different air-conditioned relief centers throughout the nation.
We should also have been bringing in tons of ice, food and water, and set up concension stands to serve hot food outside of the coliseum in New Orleans at least, and elsewhere if possible. There should be several generators delivered with fuel to the same place to air-condition it.
This stuff is not rocket science. It's not that we have not trained, nor have the forces to do this. We have a lack of leadership within the civilian command structure to accomplish this.
By the way, "we" stands for us, the people of America. The government works for us, not the other way around, or it's suppossed to be that way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Lizard Breath, posted 09-02-2005 3:01 PM Lizard Breath has not replied

dsv
Member (Idle past 4724 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 209 of 315 (240028)
09-02-2005 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Lizard Breath
09-02-2005 3:01 PM


Re: Louisiana without clout
I just wanted to make a quote note to make it clear that no one is criticizing the individuals helping. Everyone on the ground that I can see is doing an excellent job.
The problem is up the ladder with the overall organization of the entire operation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Lizard Breath, posted 09-02-2005 3:01 PM Lizard Breath has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by robinrohan, posted 09-02-2005 3:49 PM dsv has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 210 of 315 (240030)
09-02-2005 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by dsv
09-02-2005 3:38 PM


Coast Guard
I just wanted to make a quote note to make it clear that no one is criticizing the individuals helping. Everyone on the ground that I can see is doing an excellent job.
Yes. I've been impressed by the Coast Guard search-and-rescue teams. Very professional and efficient. And dedicated. They refuse to take breaks until they are so exhausted they have to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by dsv, posted 09-02-2005 3:38 PM dsv has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Lizard Breath, posted 09-02-2005 6:09 PM robinrohan has not replied

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