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Author Topic:   Hurricane Katrina
Monk
Member (Idle past 2088 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 211 of 315 (240033)
09-02-2005 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Silent H
09-02-2005 2:44 PM


Re: Mayor Lashes out at Feds
Holmes writes:

You are correct that it would be irresponsible not to coordinate efforts. Now lets deal with the reality here. What could they possibly do at the fed level that would hinder operations underway by the state and local gov'ts? Those entities are already despairing (quite publicly) that they have coordination problems in and of themselves due to their isolated and overwhelmed conditions.

Its not a matter of hindering the Feds. I never said that, I said the Feds need to coordinate, discuss, and plan how they will get involved in a situation that already involves state and local personnel. I said upthread that:

quote:
The Federal governments job in these type of disasters is to assist local and state officials.

You asserted this statement as inaccurate by saying:

quote:
That's not exactly accurate. In major disasters, just as in wartime, the federal gov't has the capability of acting independently. For example if Cuba invaded NO, the Feds would not have to call the mayor or governor to see what is needed.

Holmes, you are jumping around here without making a point. You disagree that the Feds job is to assist. Your point was that they do not need to call anyone, just go down there and get the job done, simple.

Then you retracted that and said I was correct in that it would be irresponsible not to coordinate efforts. Now you are asking what could the feds do that would not hinder operations. Who said they would be a hindrance? Do you mean they wouldnt be a hindrance if they just went down their without coordinating efforts? What is your point?

Why on earth should he say that when he is talking about what to do NOW? As far as I could tell he was discussing reponse problems, not preventative issues.

Yes, he was discussing response problems but he was also criticizing the Feds for not being there already. His criticism is hypocrisy because of HIS lack of planning. Had the planning been in place, the Feds might have been there already. Thats what I was responding to.

They are overwhelmed. They said so. The time to act was back when they said so... at the very latest.

No Holmes, as I said upthread, the time to get the Feds involved was way back on Saturday when Katrina turned Cat 5 within 300 miles of NO. Nagin should have been on the phone with the Feds at that moment. Instead, he was directing folks to the Superdome for evacuation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Silent H, posted 09-02-2005 2:44 PM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Silent H, posted 09-03-2005 4:53 AM Monk has not yet responded

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 212 of 315 (240036)
09-02-2005 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by randman
09-01-2005 10:26 PM


red tape
I tend to agree with Randman that a lot of the delay has to do with bureaucratic snags. I'm not sure about the details of his analysis, but I agree with his general point.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by randman, posted 09-01-2005 10:26 PM randman has not yet responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 31624
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 213 of 315 (240041)
09-02-2005 5:12 PM


I'm sure there's a lot of 100% accurate hindsight being developed by the people in charge of these things by now, but it looks to me like despite the best intentions and dedicated work of the helpers, the magnitude of the problem has simply swamped all available solutions. A representative from FEMA was on the news this morning saying that because of the power outage and general communication problems, they didn't even know about the people who had been directed away from the Superdome where they were concentrating their efforts.
  
dsv
Member (Idle past 2887 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 214 of 315 (240048)
09-02-2005 5:44 PM


From "ground zero"
From my friend's post (at a tech company in New Orleans):

quote:
Subject: The City is ON FIRE

I spoke to some Federal Marshalls and NOPD. Morale is LOW. Very low. They're not seeing the military presence they say they were promised. I told those guys they can't possibly imagine how much we (the world) appreciate their dedication. I asked what civil rights the citizens have and the US Marshalls looked at me like I just fell off the turnip truck and chuckled. I asked if citizens can have guns for protection and he said if someone thinks he needs a gun, he should have already evacuated. He also said they are setting the city on fire.

The NOPD wants to know where "the two active duty brigades" were that he says they were told were supposed to arrive today. When I asked him what he would want to tell the world, he said Everyone keeps talking about the military presence in the city, and then asked me," Do you see any military around here" in dusgust.

We reconned our roof also, to get a better view of the city and took... I hesitate to call them "amazing" pictures. My city... it has been punched in the face and is on the canvas being counted out.

And yes, that's smoke you see out of the windows. The city is under a haze from the fires. Smoke and ash are floating miles away from the fires.



Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Brad McFall, posted 09-02-2005 5:47 PM dsv has not yet responded

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3196 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 215 of 315 (240049)
09-02-2005 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by dsv
09-02-2005 5:44 PM


Re: From "ground zero"
I was in a "life sentence" tier of New O's Jail looking up at during Waco. No different here. The look i s the same in red or b&w. My prayers are with the lifers of NO whether with or without foti. War is not al therE is warez was.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by dsv, posted 09-02-2005 5:44 PM dsv has not yet responded

  
Lizard Breath
Member (Idle past 4859 days)
Posts: 376
Joined: 10-19-2003


Message 216 of 315 (240053)
09-02-2005 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by robinrohan
09-02-2005 3:49 PM


Re: Coast Guard
We have about 300 helicopters and 60 fixed wings working right now. We have more on standby but airspace is getting crowded and there isn't enough ramp space at the exchange points to handle more safely.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by robinrohan, posted 09-02-2005 3:49 PM robinrohan has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by jar, posted 09-02-2005 6:17 PM Lizard Breath has responded
 Message 225 by Omnivorous, posted 09-02-2005 7:29 PM Lizard Breath has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30981
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 217 of 315 (240055)
09-02-2005 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Lizard Breath
09-02-2005 6:09 PM


Re: Coast Guard
Hey LB. If you're part of the First Service, you have my full admiration. You folk are top notch and real heros.

IIRC though, you guys are somewhat short on shallow draft vessels due to the normal theater of operations. What is being done (the supply of shallow draft vessels in the area should be fine) to set up coordination, supply and maintenance for those that can be found?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Lizard Breath, posted 09-02-2005 6:09 PM Lizard Breath has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Lizard Breath, posted 09-02-2005 7:24 PM jar has not yet responded
 Message 226 by Lizard Breath, posted 09-02-2005 7:31 PM jar has responded

RAZD
Member
Posts: 19869
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 218 of 315 (240063)
09-02-2005 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Monk
09-01-2005 11:34 PM


Re: Not just the coast
Apparently Lott's house was destroyed and he was on the waterfront in Pascagoula. A lot of old antibellum houses there, an inn that used to be a (slave holding) plantation (with blood stain in one room from chained slaves -- creepy)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Monk, posted 09-01-2005 11:34 PM Monk has not yet responded

RAZD
Member
Posts: 19869
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 219 of 315 (240064)
09-02-2005 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by berberry
09-02-2005 9:57 AM


Re: Power finally restored at my house
Welcome back guy! Ya had us worried.

Yeah, and I thought a day without internet service was horrid ...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by berberry, posted 09-02-2005 9:57 AM berberry has not yet responded

RAZD
Member
Posts: 19869
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 220 of 315 (240065)
09-02-2005 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Verotika
09-02-2005 12:01 PM


Re: Mayor Lashes out at Feds
welcome to the fray

Don't believe the "unacceptable" comments from Bush.

I will when he starts to fire people.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Verotika, posted 09-02-2005 12:01 PM Verotika has not yet responded

RAZD
Member
Posts: 19869
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 221 of 315 (240066)
09-02-2005 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Monk
09-02-2005 12:41 PM


Re: Mayor Lashes out at Feds
monk writes:

The Federal governments job in these type of disasters is to assist local and state officials.

Actually, since the Dept of Homeland Security was commissioned that has changed.

More on a new topic soon.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Monk, posted 09-02-2005 12:41 PM Monk has not yet responded

RAZD
Member
Posts: 19869
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 222 of 315 (240070)
09-02-2005 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Silent H
09-02-2005 12:54 PM


Re: Mayor Lashes out at Feds
So far Bush has planned photo ops for himself.

here's one:

http://stevegilliard.blogspot.com/2005/09/failure-of-leadership.html

Arriving back in Washington Sept 1st ...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Silent H, posted 09-02-2005 12:54 PM Silent H has not yet responded

Lizard Breath
Member (Idle past 4859 days)
Posts: 376
Joined: 10-19-2003


Message 223 of 315 (240073)
09-02-2005 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Silent H
09-02-2005 3:17 PM


Re: Mayor Lashes out at Feds
Sure, he didn't. His first belated arrangements appear to be flyovers for press and morale uses.

You show your ignorance to the situation. Command orders came down 12 hours after the storm hit to reconfigure the aircraft for FEMA missions.

Not if arrangements were being made in a timely and efficient manner I wouldn't.

You show your ignorance to the situation. The flooding changed the nature of the situation to where amphibious craft were required that were not in theater. Standard relief assets were in place before the storm made land.

Wow, wtf are you and members of your unit doing reading the posts of some "pony tailed" jerk like me, much less responding to them, when there are all those people to be helping?

You show your ignorance to the situation. We are working 16 hour shifts but we work around the flying schedules. The longest that any one crew is down range is 12 hours. I will be back down range in 3 hours as of right now but that could change. So with the flow of the flying schedule and maintenence requirements, you have short periods of total chaos followed by longer periods of calm and waiting for the next mission. As down range ramp space becomes available, flights are imiediately scrambled to be there as soon as another flight is airborn.

So we have time to check in on your spewing at least once per shift. Right now we are on hold until more police can secure the down range ramps. Can't talk about what happened there today.

Your mischaracterization is noted. Build another strawman.

And again you show your ignorance to the situation. You are the quinticential Granola tye-dyed pony tail flip flop wearing wanna be. Even if President Bush could snap his fingers and make this all better, you'ld complain about noise pollution from the sound. If he had snapped his fingers and made the storm disappear before it made land, you'ld accuse him of altering the natural ecosystem to preserve his oil fortunes.

I know it is a loose/loose situation trying to explain to you what is being done without it going back to "Blame George Bush". But you still haven't offered up anything other than your "Ashbury and Haight" spew about what you would do better. Anyone can quote Chris Mathews -

Not if arrangements were being made in a timely and efficient manner I wouldn't.

but how about something more explicit so we can see just how much you know.

A dramatic change would be great. I have not dissed the efforts being made. I haved been critical, based on the comments from people on the ground, and reports of what Bush is doing, from his own mouth. Notice that I am not the only person that has been critical.

A big change should start to occur within the next 48 hours but the suffering has only just begun for the city's people. The displacements will begin to take their toll in about 8 weeks when the generousity of the country starts to run thin and our economy starts to tank - which it will. George Bush is not going to be able to create 150,000 new jobs that pay 6 figures for each of the inner city New Orleans homeless, and it will be another feeding frenzy to bash George Bush.

I have not dissed the efforts being made.

You show your ignorance to the situation. True you have not dirrectly dissed the ground troops. But other than the results being made by the troops, how else do you guage the effectivness of his actions in this situation? What else are you basing your opinon of his performance on? Perhaps whatever Chris Mathews is saying.

Again, lay it out step by step in Granola tye-dye pony tail flip flop land as to how specifically George Bush should have handled this situation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Silent H, posted 09-02-2005 3:17 PM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by RAZD, posted 09-02-2005 9:05 PM Lizard Breath has not yet responded
 Message 249 by Silent H, posted 09-03-2005 5:43 AM Lizard Breath has responded

Lizard Breath
Member (Idle past 4859 days)
Posts: 376
Joined: 10-19-2003


Message 224 of 315 (240074)
09-02-2005 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by jar
09-02-2005 6:17 PM


Re: Coast Guard
There's a RISK supply of them in several places around the country, but pulling anything out of a RISK Kit usually means maintenence. Ain't gonna materialize until long after Orleans is evacted.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by jar, posted 09-02-2005 6:17 PM jar has not yet responded

Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1131 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 225 of 315 (240076)
09-02-2005 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Lizard Breath
09-02-2005 6:09 PM


Re: Coast Guard
A Tip o' the Hat from an old Army combat engineer, LB: you're way off base with the political crap, but you have my total respect for the job.

I think everyone is looking at NO and thinking, "Whoa...what if we do have a major terrorist attack in my city, with bio or chem or nuke agents, requiring full evacuation, etc....this is as ready as we are?" After four years?

Nobody shorts the first responders, LB. That's where the guts are.

But HQ clearly had a serious case of HUT-B vision (head up the butt, for you non-Nam speakers).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Lizard Breath, posted 09-02-2005 6:09 PM Lizard Breath has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Lizard Breath, posted 09-02-2005 7:37 PM Omnivorous has not yet responded

  
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