Hurricane Katrina

You guys scare me because you actually are not talking nonsense.I read a book once where the economist (he was a bit of a gold-bug) said that if Gold was again used as the standard to back the dollar, the value of an ounce of gold would soar to over $60,000.00 an ounce...because of having to back the debt. As I type this, I am watching the History Channel...a show about the battleship Missouri.It is firing the tomahawks that started the first gulf war, due to Iraq taking "our oil supply" of Kuwait. History will later show that 1990-200(?) will be all one war....And yet while we spend all of the countries money overseas, we are unable to care for our own people.

If the dollar falls a whole lot, Americans won't be buying so much from China and other nations, and their economies will fall too. Moreover, they may well start buying stuff from us and the trade deficit turns around.Now, at some point, India and China may prosper enough not to need our buying power, and then we could be in trouble, but the solution is really to balance the budget so that we don't have to borrow money. In that case, we can pay off the national debt as debt instruments expire, and I am not an expert on this, but I think we can pay in dollars.But the federal government needs to quit overspending.The economy is not a problem right now. Government spending and borrowing could become a problem though, but if we eliminate that, we should be OK, or probably OK.

That’s a distinct possibility. Temp repairs will make no difference towards future prevention, but need to be done to return the system to pre storm status as a minimum.The existing levee system was designed to withstand a Catagory 3 hurricane. It doesn’t matter how much money is spent on the current system, it will still only withstand Cat 3 because that is the design.A total rebuild is on the magnitude of $14 billion and would take 12 years to complete, (ballpark estimate). There have been projects of that magnitude completed many times in this country. It is only prohibitively expensive for the State of Louisiana. The Federal government can pay for it. WPA all the way. Are you listening FDR?Americans will not allow this level of human catastrophe to happen again in Louisiana IF it can be avoided.People will always die in severe weather. But we can control the severity if we choose to. We have the capability to permanently prevent a similar disaster of this magnatude in New Orleans by constructing a Cat 5 levee system and wetland remediation.Louisiana has finally received a strong advocate for a permanent flood solution that has more political clout than Ted Kennedy, her name is Katrina.This message has been edited by Monk, Sat, 09-03-2005 12:14 AM

I've been stunned by many of the stories I've seen on TV and read about on the internet since I got my electricity restored. Understand that even as biased against our president as I believe everyone knows that I am, I am not eager to heap blame on him anymore than any other irresponsible official for the response to this disaster. I think he deserves plenty of blame, but there's more than enough to go around, starting with the mayor of NO. I find it unconscionable that he would allow the Hyatt Hotel guests - with their luggage! - to butt in line ahead of the suffering, starving people who've been waiting at that god-forsaken Superdome for days to catch buses out of the city.Another stunning story comes from none other than Fox News reporters Sheppard Smith and Geraldo Rivera on the Hannity & Colmes Show. Seems that the poor and destitute are being locked in the Convention Center Rape Rooms!Another heaping helping of blame goes to Michael Brown of FEMA, who deserves to be fired immediately! More blame to Bush for praising this blithering dolt.There's more, much more, but that's enough to chew on for the moment.

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"I think younger workers first of all, younger workers have been promised benefits the government promises that have been promised, benefits that we can't keep. That's just the way it is." George W. Bush, May 4, 2005

What Bush admin have you been watching? The bigger the screw up, the bigger the praise. "Slam Dunk" evidence of WMD = Medal of Freedom, this guy is gonna get a Congressional Medal of Honor

You wouldn't believe, Phat! Vicksburg is full of evacuees. I've spoken to several of them. Virtually all of them know someone, either family or friends, who either couldn't or wouldn't leave and whom they've not been able to contact since the blow. Most of them have lost everything they owned. Some have the means to stay in a hotel, but with an interruption in their income they're unsure how long they'll be able to afford to pay to remain comfortable. They don't know what to do.One elderly man I spoke with had me in tears and his story illustrates what we mean when we say "lost everything". His home was at one of the low points of the city and is completely flooded. He told me about all of the photos he's lost of things like his wedding nearly fifty years ago, of his children and grandchildren at various stages of their lives and the photos of his parents who've been long dead and of whom he has no other pictures. He told me about his father's WWI medals; he hopes he'll be able to recover those.I urge anyone living in a city where shelters have been set up for these people to go by and visit with them. Even if you can't afford to do anything else, just go talk to them. It's cathartic for them to tell someone about their troubles, and it'll make you feel good to have been able to be some small part of their recovery.Thanks for the kind words, btw.

I've had time now to review this thread, and I see that several of you were concerned about me. Thanks to Faith, RAZD, Brad, Phat and anyone else I might have missed. Your kind words are much appreciated.

I didn't say that at all and how could you take it that way when in the very quote you responded to you have: "What could they possibly do at the fed level that would hinder operations underway by the state and local gov'ts?"Please read what I write more carefully. First of all I didn't say anything was simple. Second I didn't say just go down there. Third there is a difference between becoming active independently and not trying to coordinate, becoming active independently with coordination, and holding an assisting role.You are simply trying to shift debate away from the actual topic. You were discussing bureaucratic reasons why the feds had to wait. You refered to the feds' status as "assisting". My response was that they did not have to wait for a call, and did not have to remain in an "assisting" role.They can be proactive and independent, especially in areas that are clearly vacant. Sending in a medical relief ship, or preparing supplies/reinforcements before requests come in, would not require coordination with anyone.And when I talk about hindering, I am wondering what your problem is. If you think it would be irresponsible to go in without coordination, what else are you saying but the independent action of feds without coordination would result in hindrance of rescue efforts?And I also tried to express, but maybe I didn't make myself clear enough, that at some point waiting to coordinate could itself be detrimental, when local resources are taxed beyond their breaking point. At that point you move in and create the coordination center/relief for local resources. If they don't need any more help, then you get out no harm done. If they need help then you are there in time. If you mean "already" as being the point at which he was speaking then you are right. If you mean before the hurricane hit, then I did not hear that portion of his complaints. Perhaps I missed something but the majority of his complaints were about response in the aftermath, including Bush's continued press drive with little results.I think your criticisms of the mayor on preparedness issues are somewhat solid. Indeed I have some of my own, including response, based on his interview. If you think I am trying to shift blame from everyone else and put it on Bush, you are wrong.I actually withheld any discussion of this topic, and specifically anything regarding Bush, until events actually unfolded. If Bush had done a great job he would have had my compliments.However what I did ultimately see is that yet again, Bush has folded under pressure of a crisis. This man isn't a teflon president, he's an origami president. You keep trying to force this into a local only issue. You are right that mistakes were made on Nagin's part, as well as many other gov'tal sections at the lower than fed level. On that we can agree (in general, if not on every specific detail).In fact, do you remember me responding to you at all when you made those earlier comments? Duh...I only stepped in when you went to defend Bush by mischaracterizing the role of the federal agencies. He also shares a bit of the burden. In fact I find it sort of hypocritical to be discussing the knowledge Nagin should have had in the face of a Cat 5 storm (was he even around for all that work on flood control systems), yet give Bush a pass on it.If I were president, and I saw a serious hurricane heading toward a major city, and indeed could hit several states (which by itself becomes a federal issue), I'd have requested the exact same kind of information on their defenses as you just provided, and made sure I was putting in place some contingency plans.Once an entire, and rather important, city was ordered for evacuation, there was no question that (especially in a post 911 environment) someone could take advantage of the security issues presented. I mean who the f knows if terrorists are not at this moment, using the security issues to their advantage? I'd have had troops stationed there in advance, at the very least at federal buildings, in large bumbers, to act as bases of security and coordination in case things got out of hand.This isn't hindsight, its not armchair quarterbacking, its foresight. I have genuinely been amazed at the poor performance on the fed level. Things will eventually be fixed, indeed it appears some relief is finally arriving, but there was obviously some major mistakes made and the blame hits all levels on this one.Personally I will be encouraged if this event gets notice paid to flood control defenses, as well as subsidence issues for states. Coincidentally I had learned and studied coastal/flooding issues with respect to NO, years ago (almost 10 years ago). This stuff is not new, and so some blame could go back as far as Clinton.Now are all of you f'ing political hacks happy?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Actually I didn't, at least not from anything you mentioned, though I admit I am ignorant of exact details of arrangements.However, you appear ignorant of history, and concepts of proper planning. As RAZD has already pointed out, commands should have been coming down before the storm hit. It did not take a genius, based on basic knowledge of hurricanes and flooding, especially around NO, to realize the potential for serious trouble was there.As soon as NO was slated for evacuation, the federal gov't should have been sending in troops on its own to secure vital areas. The potential for additional damage by manmade sources (namely terrorists) escalated exponentially at that moment... and that is besides the looting issues.Maybe you do not remember the floods of last decade further north in the Mississppi. I do as well as all the troops that had to be deployed to fix things and keep order. At that time some people (not even terrorists) sabotaged flood defenses. Bush was not considering that that could be a possibility?Forming federal centers as backup relief/coordination areas for local resources as well as points for federal control in case things got out of hand would not have been impossible nor unwise. Its called planning. That in itself speaks volumes. Why on earth were amphibious craft, or at the very least aquatic vehicles, not moved into theater? Flooding issues were not expected? is that what you are telling? That is only an argument for greater ignorance than I was originally positing. I was jerking your chain. For a jackass to tell me who I am and totally miss the mark, I felt it was tit for tat to do the same. Guess you didn't get it when I placed in the reference to what you called me.I loathe people that use the fact that they are in positions of doing good, to berate others and act as if everything they have to say on all other subjects are correct. Yet you continue to protest your own ignorance to the world. Hey, were you one of the assholes that tried to say I was against the military and wars and stuff like that?Maybe you could actually start providing some counterevidence regarding how it was impossible to expect flooding... FLOODING... in NO when a storm surge develops along a subsiding delta with known flooding issues... such that extra amphibious and aquatic resources should be moved into theater or prepared for deployment.Perhaps you can provide reasons that no one would expect that a situation would develop... when a city is being evacuated... where serious security issues might not develop and require federal oversight.That is instead of supplying forged evidence to create personal attacks. Maybe you should actually read and/or try to understand what I am writing. First of all if you go back in this thread I never said word one, including when people were criticizing people outside the Bush admin (even Dems), until a mischaracterization was made about the nature of federal response to emergencies in order to cut Bush some slack in this mess.I wasn't trying to just Blame Bush, but I am certainly going to point the finger (or raise one) when it is appropriate, and not let others appeal to nonissues to cut him slack.My guess is if Kerry had been in the WH, you and those jumping to defend Bush at this point, would be discussing how this proves his lack of response to times of crisis.I on the other hand am being quite fair. Dems certainly hold responsibility (at the local level), as Monk has adequately pointed out (and berb at this point too). At the federal level there is only one guy in charge, and he does get the blame for mistake made at the federal level. He happens to be george bush.It also just so happens that he froze in the same way on 911. Thankfully another Republican was quite the leader at the local level.This is strike two for Bush, totally whiffing, in the face of national emergencies. It appears some changes have already begun. Fantastic. Great work... and I suppose that even includes you.I will not blame Bush for the problems that are going to come out of this disaster. That is what happens in disasters of this scale. If you see me doing what you just suggested, then call me on it. Otherwise shut the f up. Are you kidding me? I gauge who I criticize, based on their realm of control and the results at that level. It seems to me that everyone on the ground and that can do something is working heroically. On the flipside, it appears to me that most of the leaders who are supposed to be planning before things happen, as well as coordinate them afterward were not (Honore is the first fed who appears to be moving things forward from a top level). I mean really, wtf?Oh by the way, I don't get Chris Matthews where I am. Or at least I have no idea where to get him. And I don't watch any US media. The CNN I do get is international and they have not said anything about Bush or his actions in any derogative way.Where I get my criticisms are from HIS OWN ACTIONS AND STATEMENTS ABOUT HIS ACTIONS... which have amounted to inaction. How hard is that for you to follow?Abandon your stereotypes and maybe you will start addressing who I am or at least what I have been saying.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Thank you very much.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I just finished looking over this thread, and all I can say is "wow". To berberry, I started to get really worried after seeing no reply from you for a while, but when I saw your response, a feeling of great releif came over me. Glad to see that you are alright.I must say that I do agree that Bush and many officials are much to blame for the results of this catastrophe. Much of the suffering could have been avoided if there had been a more prompt response.And this is coming from a Christian. Just because one is a Christian doesn't mean they're going to side with Bush or his administration. I personally feel the democrats would have probably done a better job in responding to the situation. But then again you never know.This message has been edited by Lysimachus, 09-03-2005 03:37 PM

Exactly! New Orleans was lost long before the hurricane.

I've watched with growing incredulity as NOTHING seemed to be happening to help the people trapped in NO. I've watched the BBC try to report impartially and fail miserably. Over here in the UK, the impression is that Bush totally failed to grasp the sheer enormity of what had happened. To be honest, I think most of the media missed the fact that when the hurricane had passed the danger wasn't over. It took a couple of days for them to realise that the flooding was getting worse because of the breaches in the levees.The thing is, I can understand the UK media missing this, but not the President of the US of A. I've started looking into the background of this and if I'd known then what I know now I would have been expecting this. Hell, I was even aware of what a catastrophe this was BEFORE Bush seemed to be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I'm a UK citizen, I don't have any responsibility for the people of NO or any other part of the USA, so I have no reason to make myself aware of these risks to American people. However, Bush is the President and it is his duty to make himself aware. I managed it, why couldn't he? Even when it was patently obvious from media reports that the situation was horrendous, he appeared to be oblivious! His statements on national television left me speechless as he seemed to again miss the seriousness of the situation.As we are forever reminded, the good ol' US of A is the only remaining superpower in the world, the richest nation on the face of the planet with largest armed forces, yet they couldn't get food and water to the people who they had evacuated to the Superdome. Bloody hell, even the UK media was suggesting that the evacuation of people to the Superdome could end up a catastrophe if the levees were breached and that was before Katrina hit!The response before and after Katrina was inadequate, but it's the response afterward that should come in for damning criticism. The response before the storm was based on judgement and prediction, the response afterwards can be judged on actual facts. The city was going to be flooded until the water level reached the water level of the Gulf. It wasn't going to stop until then, the situation was only going to get worse.Aid is arriving now. Where was it a few days ago? They had Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday - four days. Seems like aid started getting in today - Saturday - five days after the storm had passed. Five days! For f*$k's sake, we had aid to Banda Aceh faster than that and they were hit by a tsunami of Biblical proportions!!!!!!!!! Yet Bush and cohorts couldn't get aid to NO???? I don't believe it, I truly believe that they totally misjudged the situation and it does put me in mind of his initial response to 9/11, when he sat for about 20 minutes AFTER he had been informed of the attack.There are people in NO as I write this who are dying on the streets, in filth!! There are babies drawing their last breath, mothers falling apart as they can't do anything to help their infants. This is a bloody disgrace in a country like the USA.The most telling thing for me is that Bush has called in Daddy and Clinton to help. Can he not manage this on his own? What would happen if Daddy and the former Pres weren't alive? The President of the USA should have the ability to cope with issues like this, after all, that's what he has been elected to do. Sadly the impression he's given this term and last is that he couldn't breathe and chew gum at the same time, let alone walk as well. He should do the decent thing and sort out this mess, then resign.So, how do I help those people of NO? Do I send my hard-earned cash? To the richest nation on earth? To the richest nation on earth which is spending it's money fighting in Iraq? The USA doesn't need my money, the USA needs my prayers and the USA needs a President with a modicum of common sense who can make decisions without Daddy to hold his hand.Edited to add my relief that berberry is OK and has reported for duty! You had us worried, pal!This message has been edited by Trixie, 09-03-2005 04:50 PM

Yes, Trixie. I'm right here by it, and it hurts my heart.Apparently the whole problem was due to red tape.

i was thinking about this earlier today, from the perspective of having been through something similar but much much smaller.bill maher showed two pictures with their captions last night on his show, one of a black "looter" who "stole" food and drinks from a flooded grocery store, and the other of two white "people" who "found" food and water at a flooded grocery store. he was trying to highlight racism in the media or something.but here's the point -- people are taking food and water. i heard on npr that the citizens aren't complaining about the looters, becuase the looters are bringing them supplies. so i was thinking that's a pretty fair trade off. if i'm starving and deprived of everything similar to civilization, i'll gladly trade my non-working tv for some food. and i'll laugh about the bargain i just made -- what good is a tv in a flood?is capitalism and the market economy of flooded stores, and the integrity of demolished homes so sacred that we actually care about junk that's not even useful anymore?then it dawned on me, really. tv's ARE useful. they're a source of information. if they work, and if someone has a generator, it's a way to keep in touch with the outside world. when you're sitting in the dark, with no a/c, no food, nothing to do, and the civilization around you in shambles the flow of information is the only thing that keeps people sane.that's why people there are so furious. they don't know what's happening. they don't know when they're going to be rescued, or when life will return to normal. the uncertainty is overwhelming, and angry and frustration are the results. when frances hit, we were glued to our radio for a week. we wanted all the information we could get. we wanted to know where the power trucks were, when we'd have gas, when fema was coming.....that's why people are stealing tv's. because tv's and radios ARE a neccessity in a disaster.

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