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Author Topic:   Department Of Homeland Security Inaction At the Top
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 2 of 297 (240117)
09-02-2005 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
09-02-2005 8:51 PM


natural disasters
hmm.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 09-02-2005 8:51 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 4 of 297 (240124)
09-02-2005 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by RAZD
09-02-2005 9:42 PM


Re: natural disasters
i think the moral of the story is that no one is actually prepared for disasters of any kind, even the forseeable ones.
here in south florida, we get hurricanes alot. last year's frances knocked us on our asses for a good week or more, generally without electricity. a bit further north had it pretty bad.
it was nothing compared to this, really. because we're a little more capable of dealing with hurricanes. or rather, we're not below sea level, kept dry by a delicate network of levees. we're above sea level, with lots and lots of drainage canals. we get 20 feet of rain, and it just drains away and we laugh about it.
but even last year's smaller disaster was so mismanaged that nearly every resident of these half dozen coastal s. fl. counties were outraged. the reasources and people just were not there. it was not really humanly possible to get everything back in a speedy manner. and sitting here in the dark without ac for a week was more mentally taxing than anything else.
i can't begin to fathom what has happened to nola. what happened here wasn't even in the same league as their situation. fema and the dhs were a joke to us. they barely did anything. fema threw some money at the situation, but that was about it.
where is the dhs? the national gaurd is there, but they could use more -- where is the rest of the armed forces?

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Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 9 of 297 (240302)
09-03-2005 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Peal
09-03-2005 4:56 PM


Re: Hounds are on the hunt.
Friday night on The O’Reilly Factor, O’Reilly said that Kathleen Babineaux Blanco, governor of Louisiana, should apologize for her late decision in getting the necessary National Guard in place after the hurricane
wow.
isn't the idea of the dhs to have a strong federal agency that watches, plans for, and makes decisions about things exactly like this? i mean, correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't that why the exist?

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 10 of 297 (240303)
09-03-2005 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
09-03-2005 11:18 AM


Re: Let's not forget the upcoming tragedies.
There will be a tsunami that will hit the East Coast of the US. It will wipe out most structures in Florida.
aw, fuck.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 22 of 297 (240453)
09-04-2005 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by RAZD
09-03-2005 9:45 PM


Re: Let's not forget the upcoming tragedies.
well you do know that {ATLANTIS} is supposed to be just off Cuba, right?
the bimini roads bs? i don't believe that for a second.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 23 of 297 (240456)
09-04-2005 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Monk
09-04-2005 1:06 PM


it's not funny
Bush will be responsible
you can make jokes all you want. but seeing as how i live in florida, within walking distance of the coast, i don't find this very funny at all.
would bush be responsible? yes, partly. he would.
the department of homeland security is supposed to prepare and plan for these things. they are obviously not. we were totally unprepared for frances and jean, LA was totally unprepared for katrina. and we would be UTTERLY unprepared for something like this.
the dhs is simply not doing their job very effectively. they are not planning ahead. they're not even reacting quickly.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 26 of 297 (240465)
09-04-2005 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by jar
09-04-2005 10:33 PM


Re: it's not funny
The first step is to admit that there is a possibility of such things happening. It is the same thing with Global Warming. As long as we deny it as reality, it can't hurt us. When that fails, claim that it's a natural cycle.
but, you see, it IS a natural cycle. that shouldn't help their case -- that means these things are PREDICTABLE. and they are.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 27 of 297 (240466)
09-04-2005 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by RAZD
09-04-2005 10:34 PM


Re: Let's not forget the upcoming tragedies.
it's still stupid.
atlantis was an allegory for athens.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 33 of 297 (240509)
09-05-2005 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
09-04-2005 11:07 PM


no, screw the blamers.
Let's not waste time worrying about who did what wrong, let's start thinking about how to do it right next time.
no, let's.
quote:
(CNN) -- The director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency said Thursday those New Orleans residents who chose not to heed warnings to evacuate before Hurricane Katrina bear some responsibility for their fates.
Michael Brown also agreed with other public officials that the death toll in the city could reach into the thousands.
"Unfortunately, that's going to be attributable a lot to people who did not heed the advance warnings," Brown told CNN.
"I don't make judgments about why people chose not to leave but, you know, there was a mandatory evacuation of New Orleans," he said.
this guy deserves some blame. i am personally well acquainted with fema's incompetance and non-presence in hurricane disasters. to sit around and place blame on the VICTIMS of a disaster that your own agency is supposed to help prepare for, prevent, and clean up when it is plainly obvious to everyone that it is not serving that purpose is hypocricy at the highest level.
hurricanes are predictable disasters. fema knew the dangers, and it should have been working to reinforce levees months in advance. fema should have been there coordinating the evacuation days in advance, and providing transportation for those that had none. fema should be there now in full force. there are a lot of "shoulds" with this organisation. a lot. they are not doing their job.
they didn't do their job here, in frances either. we were flabbergasted that all they did was give people money if they applied for aid after the fact.
michael brown is not the person to point fingers, especially not at the people he should be saving.

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Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 42 of 297 (240617)
09-05-2005 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by robinrohan
09-05-2005 12:56 PM


Re: the unpredictability of tropical weather
They are predictable in the sense that we know ahead of time if one is coming, but they are very unpredictable in regards to the damage they do. There have been hurricanes that did much less damage than we thought they would, and then there are other storms that did much more.
sure. but the damage from this one was pretty much predicted. we knew what would happen if a big enough hurricane hit nola.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 43 of 297 (240623)
09-05-2005 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Monk
09-05-2005 2:25 PM


what is fema supposed to do then, monk?
let's go over this for a second. FEMA is the Federal Emergency Management Agency. their sole function is manage emergencies on a federal level. wikipedia puts it like this:
quote:
FEMA coordinates the work of federal, state, and local agencies in responding to floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, and other natural disasters.
quote:
* Mitigation: Reducing the severity or likelihood of the hazard.
* Preparedness: Ensuring you have the capability to respond to the hazard.
* Response: Immediate actions taken to save lives, property, the environment, and the economy.
* Recovery: Subsequent actions taken to restore property, jobs, and services.
alright, now, let's review with this in mind.
Wrong. FEMA is not responsible for reinforcing the levees. It is the responsibility of the Orleans district levee board working in concert with the Corps of Engineers.
yes. fema is responsible for reinforcing levees. they are supposed to coordinate efforts with levee boards and the army corp of engineers. they are responsible for managing that sort of thing on a federal level. thus their name.
you see, that falls under the first two categories of their duties. they are supposed to reduce the likelihood or severity of possible disasters, and help prepare for the ones that are foreseeable.
Wrong. It is not FEMA’s responsibility to coordinate the evacuation of cities days in advance. It is the state's responsibility and in particular the local authorities, city officials, parish or county officials who have jurisdiction in these affairs. It is the same scenario all over the country in every major metropolitan area.
actually, it is. that's part of number 2.
Here is the 364 buses operated by the New Orleans Regional Transportation Authority (NORTA) that Nagin should have used to evacuate the poor.
Why weren't NORTA's 364 buses used to ferry poor people out of New Orleans before Katrina hit?
good question. why weren't they?
RTA buses never left the RTA lots. There was no water or food provisions brought to the Superdome before Katrina hit. There were no emergency generators brought to either the Superdome or the convention center before the storm hit. These are not the responsibility of FEMA these are local responsibilities.
see that bit above about coordinating federal, state, and local efforts?
FEMA did not do their job. They were too slow to respond when it became blindingly obvious that state and local officials were helpless.
from personal experience here, fema is pretty helpless too. this is not the first disaster they've botched. i happened to be in the other one. fema did a LITTLE of the funding part of the job, until money ran out. then they high-tailed it out of the state, only to return and investigate who bought what with it. nearest i can tell, they didn't do anything else.
in other words, they're about an 1/8th of their job. maybe they're drastically underfunded. but if they're going to essentially do nothing, blame the victims, and then pat themselves on the back for a job well done, why bother having them?
yes, state and local officials are helpless. that's the idea behind having fema. they're supposed to take charge. i don't expect you to understand this, really. you live in kansas. not that there's anything wrong with kansas, but it's not florida. you have no reference for understanding the madhouse an entire state can become when a category 4 or 5 hurricane is beaing down on your coast.
that calm before a storm? it's a myth. the sky might be dead, but the people on the ground are maddly doing everything they can to prepare. grocery stores are a nightmare. no bread, no water, no batteries, no charcoal -- the shelves are empty and the aisles full. home depot sells out of plywood for the next 6 months. people are running around relocating. many try to leave, and clog the highways. the VIDEO STORE is even jumping with activity.
you have no way to understand activity, panic and mass hysteria on a state level. these things don't happen in kansas. but we're pretty familiar with it down here. there are not enough police officers, army reserve, fire fighters, paramedics or whatever in the entire state to deal with even the craziness BEFORE the storm, let alone after.
the trick is to prepare as early as possible. make sure you have all the things you need before you even know there's a hurricane coming. we have a very helpful resource here, the national hurricane center. every june or july they issue a guide before the hurricane season. the people who have to evacuate know when and where they have to evacuate to. we're not as prepared as cuba, but we're not in the dark either.
if we can prepare for forseeable disasters, so should fema. that's their job. they might not have been able to prevent this disaster, but they certainly could have planned for it better, and i dunno, actually done SOMETHING. anything at all.
Some will continue to argue that FEMA should have been involved earlier and that they should have taken over local control of the situation before the storm hit. But that's not how the system works.
Federal, State and Local authorities operate under a system whereby powers and jurisdictions are understood. Not just in New Orleans, but everywhere in this country.
THE SYSTEM: Either live with it or change it.
actually, the whole point of fema is that they have the jurisdiction to suspend local, county, and state jurisdiction. actually, if i recall correctly, they have the authority to suspend FEDERAL jurisdiction too. the system is that they come in, say "we're running the show now. do this, this, this, this, and that. here's money, here's manpower from other states." that's why they exist.
if they're just an extra layer of red tape, sitting around with their thumbs up their asses, shifting blame and spinning propaganda, and not even doing a damned thing then we don't need them, and they should shuttup and go away.
basically they should at least TRY to do their jobs, or get lost.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Monk, posted 09-05-2005 2:25 PM Monk has replied

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 44 of 297 (240624)
09-05-2005 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by RAZD
09-03-2005 7:17 AM


Re: natural disasters
where is the dhs?
and what have they been doing for the last 3-4 years if they haven't even thought of creating evacuation plans for major cities.
it seems to me that we have two agencies that are simply utterly failing to serve their purposes.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 49 of 297 (240642)
09-05-2005 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by RAZD
09-05-2005 4:36 PM


Re: once again, monk misses the point
fascism.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 51 of 297 (240664)
09-05-2005 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by crashfrog
09-05-2005 6:25 PM


think the right will find a way to slime and spin their way out of this one? i think it's pretty obvious that the dhs and fema have utterly failed.

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Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1362 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 54 of 297 (240669)
09-05-2005 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by robinrohan
09-05-2005 6:31 PM


Re: the unpredictability of tropical weather
Yes, but the massive damage to Miss.--not expected.
*shrug* they need to find better people then. i mean *I* expected it. you don't have a storm the size of the entire gulf of mexico and expect nola to be bonkered but not mississippi.

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