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Author Topic:   Believer/non believer ratio
AdminBen
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 30 (239082)
08-31-2005 3:35 PM


Moving to the Coffee House
Seeing how this isn't a matter of board administration (unless y'all are looking to round up your opponents and kick 'em all out), I'm moving this to the Coffee House.
...and AdminBen is neither believer or non-believer. God need not take such a position on Himself.
This message has been edited by AdminBen, Wednesday, 2005/08/31 12:35 PM

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AdminBen
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 30 (239085)
08-31-2005 3:36 PM


Thread moved here from the Suggestions and Questions forum.

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 18 of 30 (239109)
08-31-2005 4:14 PM


Team Roster
This broadens the topic slightly, but it looks like Iano and I started similiar threads around the same time, so here's what I had posted, hopefully we can keep them all in the same place.
Surfing the posts I've frequently come across phrases like "your side" or "the people on your side", etc. As near as I can tell everyone (including me) uses these.
But what are the "sides"? Who's on who's team?
This thread is an attempt to establish the main groups active in this debate, their beliefs, theif foundations for those beliefs.
This could include a listing of who's a member of what group, but I suggest we leave that up to an individual to self-identify.
I'm going to start by listing the groups as I see them, organized as I see fit, and their basic arguments.
Feel free to jump in and tell me how wrong I am.
Group 1: Evolutionists
subgroups - Atheistic evolutionists, Theistic evolutionists, Abiogenisists
Argument: The processes we see today are the same processes which existed in the past. The data overwhelmingly supports and confirms a long, slow, process of speciation through the mechanics of Evolution (mutation & natural selection).
Note: How the process started has no effect on the process itself, therefore not real conflict between Atheistic and Theistic Evolutionists, etc.
Group 2: Old Earth Creationists
subgroups: Intelligent Design, Biblical relativists
Argument: The complexities we see around us are too intricate and well thought out to have been the result of chance mutations over time. While the data clearly indicates a long series of species extending back through time, the changes we see in those species have been directed by a higher power.
Note: The creation story in Genesis is metaphorical. The "days" could represent millions of years, and therefore in principle the story doesn't conflict with this theory.
Group 3: Young Earth Creationists / Literalists
Argument: The Bible is a direct account of the creation of the Earth and the species upon it. The events laid out within (the Creation, the Garden of Eden, the Flood) took place as they are described. The special conditions of a worldwide Flood explain the extinction / fossilization of non-existant animals. There is no change of species. Everything alive / extinct was create as is/was by God without variation.
Group 4: Undecideds
Argument: There's a lot of evidence, I haven't had nearly enough time to absorb it all.
Have I missed any groups? Have I gotten the arguments wrong?
Chime in

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by nwr, posted 08-31-2005 4:29 PM Nuggin has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 19 of 30 (239118)
08-31-2005 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Nuggin
08-31-2005 4:14 PM


Re: Team Roster
Count me as a supporter of the Theory of Evolution. It might need a few tweaks here and there, but it is a sound and useful theory.
A corollary is that I consider YEC to be absurd.
-------------
While we are about it, we might as well comment on politics, since that seems to come up often enough.
Count me as a pragmatic centrist. These days I usually vote Democratic, but not because I agree with all of the dem positions. It is just that I view the current republican party as evil, and I will not vote for them until they return to sanity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Nuggin, posted 08-31-2005 4:14 PM Nuggin has not replied

  
Wolf
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 30 (240034)
09-02-2005 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by iano
08-31-2005 6:23 AM


Non-Believer of the Christian God
Supporter for ToE
Possibility a Higher being may exist.
Not a total Atheist yet.

"A Dwarf on a Giants Shoulder sees the Furthest of the Two!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by iano, posted 08-31-2005 6:23 AM iano has not replied

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1398 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 21 of 30 (240059)
09-02-2005 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by iano
08-31-2005 6:23 AM


I'm not a believer.
Nor a non-believer.
If God appeared in the clouds, I wouldn't know whether to consider it a big hoax or to repent. I'd probably look up for a few seconds, and then get on with whatever I was doing.
As for Nuggin's question, evolution seems like a useful scientific theory. So I use it. Creation / ID aren't so useful. So I ignore them.

I don't want a large Farva, I want a goddamn liter-a-cola.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by iano, posted 08-31-2005 6:23 AM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Omnivorous, posted 09-02-2005 11:52 PM Ben! has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 22 of 30 (240145)
09-02-2005 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Ben!
09-02-2005 6:39 PM


Farva writes:
If God appeared in the clouds, I wouldn't know whether to consider it a big hoax or to repent.
If I ever saw one, I'd keep it to myself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Ben!, posted 09-02-2005 6:39 PM Ben! has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 09-02-2005 11:56 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 23 of 30 (240146)
09-02-2005 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Omnivorous
09-02-2005 11:52 PM


Well, the only time anyone is going to get to see God appearing in the clouds is when Jesus returns to rule the planet, and the Last Judgment is the next thing on the schedule. Ignoring the event is not going to be an option.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Omnivorous, posted 09-02-2005 11:52 PM Omnivorous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Ben!, posted 09-03-2005 12:03 AM Faith has not replied

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1398 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 24 of 30 (240148)
09-03-2005 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
09-02-2005 11:56 PM


Hi Faith, you missed the point. Maybe if I say it in a Bible-compliant way, you'll catch on. I'm doing this just for you though, and just this once, because I like you.
  • If I heard God's voice, I wouldn't know whether it was just me or if it was just God.
  • Maybe that will satisfy your urge to respond with random Bible-facts which have nothing to do with the thread.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 23 by Faith, posted 09-02-2005 11:56 PM Faith has not replied

      
    dsv
    Member (Idle past 4724 days)
    Posts: 220
    From: Secret Underground Hideout
    Joined: 08-17-2004


    Message 25 of 30 (240156)
    09-03-2005 12:33 AM


    Agnostic. -- Open to higher understanding but not any organized religion we're aware of at this point.
    PS:
    Faith writes:
    Well, the only time anyone is going to get to see God appearing in the clouds is when Jesus returns to rule the planet, and the Last Judgment is the next thing on the schedule. Ignoring the event is not going to be an option.
    Living in fear must be exhausting.

    Replies to this message:
     Message 26 by Ben!, posted 09-03-2005 1:03 AM dsv has replied

      
    Ben!
    Member (Idle past 1398 days)
    Posts: 1161
    From: Hayward, CA
    Joined: 10-14-2004


    Message 26 of 30 (240161)
    09-03-2005 1:03 AM
    Reply to: Message 25 by dsv
    09-03-2005 12:33 AM


    Faith writes:
    Well, the only time anyone is going to get to see God appearing in the clouds is when Jesus returns to rule the planet, and the Last Judgment is the next thing on the schedule. Ignoring the event is not going to be an option.
    Living in fear must be exhausting.
    Why reply? Why go for the bait? Why not bite your tongue? Why willingly follow the lead to a random march away from the point of the thread?
    These are rhetorical questions. Really, I'm just disappointed... and I'm voicing it.
    When we insist on carrying around with us... and linguistically communicating... our differences, even to threads like this one, ... sigh. What's the point of having topics, or trying to discuss, at all. Are we linguistically-endowed animals, or are we prefrontally-endowed humans? It just boggles my mind.
    I'm not looking to debate this. Take it for what it's worth, as it is. Thanks.

    I don't want a large Farva, I want a goddamn liter-a-cola.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 25 by dsv, posted 09-03-2005 12:33 AM dsv has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 28 by dsv, posted 09-03-2005 11:57 AM Ben! has not replied

      
    roxrkool
    Member (Idle past 989 days)
    Posts: 1497
    From: Nevada
    Joined: 03-23-2003


    Message 27 of 30 (240162)
    09-03-2005 1:03 AM


    non-believer
    no such thing as a god or anything remotely similar, not even a possibility
    Would I like there to be? Sure. It'd be nice to see my loved ones again. Having a second chance of life would be nice, too.

      
    dsv
    Member (Idle past 4724 days)
    Posts: 220
    From: Secret Underground Hideout
    Joined: 08-17-2004


    Message 28 of 30 (240250)
    09-03-2005 11:57 AM
    Reply to: Message 26 by Ben!
    09-03-2005 1:03 AM


    Who turned my quick aside, obiter dictum, into an issue warranting lengthy replies?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 26 by Ben!, posted 09-03-2005 1:03 AM Ben! has not replied

      
    lfen
    Member (Idle past 4677 days)
    Posts: 2189
    From: Oregon
    Joined: 06-24-2004


    Message 29 of 30 (240557)
    09-05-2005 11:44 AM
    Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
    08-31-2005 6:28 AM


    I believe that beliefs have temporary usefulness and relative functionality.
    I'm interested in direct knowing of being as in Advaita Vedanta, Buddhism,and Taoism.
    I don't believe in revealed religion and it's documents.
    lfen

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 2 by Phat, posted 08-31-2005 6:28 AM Phat has not replied

      
    RAZD
    Member (Idle past 1405 days)
    Posts: 20714
    From: the other end of the sidewalk
    Joined: 03-14-2004


    Message 30 of 30 (240646)
    09-05-2005 5:18 PM


    gosh
    do I need to spell it out?
    ... wait, I already did:

    we are limited in our ability to understand
    by our ability to understand
    RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
    ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
    to share.

      
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