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Author Topic:   Why read the Bible literally: take two
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 119 of 306 (240487)
09-05-2005 1:54 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Steve8
09-05-2005 1:32 AM


Re: Tenatively Rejected
however, the rule is, it's literal unless the context or language used dictates otherwise.
Your point about exaggerations is a good one. Particularly "if I eat one more thing..."
I agree that it's quite clear in the Bible what should be taken with that same grain of salt.
Here are some examples:
"Noah brought two of EVERY animal on his ark". Clearly, we aren't meant to believe it was two of every animal.
-or-
"God made people out of clay".
Clearly, these kind of statements aren't to be taken literally.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Steve8, posted 09-05-2005 1:32 AM Steve8 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Steve8, posted 09-05-2005 1:01 PM Nuggin has replied

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 123 of 306 (240654)
09-05-2005 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Steve8
09-05-2005 1:01 PM


Re: Tenatively Rejected
On animals - Even two of every "kind" of animal is still 2x T-Rex, 2x triceratops, 2x elephants, 2x lion, 2x warthog, etc etc etc
That's a really really big boat.
On clay - Are you suggesting that God, who created all of creation outa NOTHING, couldn't just think up humanity, but instead had to create it out of clay. Seems kinda bassakwards if you ask me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Steve8, posted 09-05-2005 1:01 PM Steve8 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Steve8, posted 09-05-2005 11:41 PM Nuggin has not replied

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 125 of 306 (240689)
09-05-2005 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by crashfrog
09-05-2005 6:53 PM


What God can do
Personally, I think God has created two kinds of people. Those of us who look at the natural world and see what's happening around us and those that he put here specifically to mislead us.
What's more misleading than a group of people, planted specifically by God, who spout their "true belief" as though the spoke for God himself.
Pretty devious of him to plant these "Christians" just to throw us off the track. But, then again, he's a tricky one.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 09-05-2005 8:36 PM Nuggin has replied

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 128 of 306 (240708)
09-05-2005 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Phat
09-05-2005 8:36 PM


Re: What God can do
Clearly the ones who claim to be on God's side are the ones we must suspect the most.
I think a good rule of thumb is this -- Anyone who believes that they speak for God, clearly doesn't. Anyone who professes a belief without a foundation of evidence, clearly one of the misleaders.
Anyone asking for money, misleader
Anyone "protecting" marriage, misleader.
Anyone praying for assassination...
the list goes on and on

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 09-05-2005 8:36 PM Phat has not replied

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 158 of 306 (241072)
09-07-2005 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Steve8
09-06-2005 10:50 PM


Re: Quite possible?
I know that your post has met a lot of hostility on the board, so I'm going to try a different approach.
That's one of the things I've learned about this debate as a former atheistic evolutionist myself...in order to understand the opposing camp's views, you must accept ALL of their presuppositions first (however temporarily or permanently)...only then can you see their logic...without that, you're always groping in the dark.
I'm going to try to accept all the presuppositions, but I need to make sure that I have them right in order to do so.
1) The Bible is literally true.
2) Therefore, when the Bible says Noah took two of every animal after their kind, what it's saying is 2 large cats (not necessarily two lions and two tigers, etc).
3) Dinosaurs were alive at this time, so 2 of every kind of dinosaur came on board.
4) Noah and his immediate family were the only people to survive.
5) The water came for 40 days / nights.
6) The water then vanished, leaving behind layers of sedament containing fossils of those things that died in the flood.
7) The Ark landed and people and animals spread out. Some of which became extinct right away, others did not.
8) After this happened, the continents broke apart and moved away from each other
9) Noah's decendants rapidly spread out as well.
I'm sure I've missed some, but I want to simply discuss the ones I've listed.
Fully accepted everything that happened as fact, I still have some unanswered questions.
1) Which Flood account in which Bible is true? Some say 2 of every animal, some say 2 of the uncleans and 7 of the clean ones.
2a) If Creationists support microevolution but not macroevolution, and they define microevolution as changes within a species, how do we explain that tigers and lions can not interbreed successfully?
2b) Are foxes or coyotes dogs, or are they their own kind? How about bears vs badgers? How about kangaroos vs thylacines?
3/7) Why save the dinosaurs from the Flood only to have them go extinct immediately afterwards? -or- Why doesn't the Bible say that Noah took two of every animal onto the Ark except the dinosaurs?
4) If Noah, his 3 sons and their 3 wives were the only ones to survive. Wouldn't that necessarily imply a whole lot of cousin on cousin lovin to propogate the entire rest of humanity?
5) Where did the water come from? Where did it go after it fell?
6/7) After the water disappeared, why did the layers of sedament only capture certain types of animals and plants in them? Why are the dinosaurs seperate from the elephants? Both are large animals which can not swim. Speaking of swimming, why did so many aquatic animals die in the flood? Why didn't the other aquatic animals die?
8) Why did the continents break apart after the Flood and not during the flood? If all the layers of sedament were set down during the flood, shouldn't that make the continents less likely to spread apart immediately after the waters vanished?
9) How did Noah's small family spread out and become all the races of the Earth, and why, after living through such a traumatic event did they so rapidly abandon God and the scriptures in favor of other false deities? How is it that one branch of Noah's family - the Chinese, record a history that runs through before the Flood in a language that none of the rest of Noah's family knows?
I'm willing to accept your theory of Creation, but it has to make sense internally. Hopefully you can answer the questions.
Please understand that every time you answer with "it was magic" you do more damage to your cause than good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Steve8, posted 09-06-2005 10:50 PM Steve8 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Steve8, posted 09-07-2005 11:04 PM Nuggin has replied

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 161 of 306 (241100)
09-07-2005 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Steve8
09-07-2005 4:03 PM


Re: Quite possible?
the reason why these creationist organisations have been formed, because the evolutionist ones do not give them the freedom to do work from their own perspective.
No evolution-ist is stopping these people from doing their own research. Scientific organizations simply don't want to fund non-scientific work.
Despite all your points, even if Creationism were 100% true, it still would not be science. Therefore, you might as well expect a French Language club to fund their work as you would expect a science organization.
Further, the real reason these organizations have been formed (as with most "Christian" organizations) is to obtain money from believers. That's why when you go to these websites, they are constantly asking for cash, selling stuff, selling their books, etc.
The fact that the Creationists have still not caught onto this after televangelist after televangelist proves the point is more willful ignorance on their part.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Steve8, posted 09-07-2005 4:03 PM Steve8 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 166 of 306 (241152)
09-07-2005 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Steve8
09-07-2005 7:32 PM


Re: Quite possible?
I think it's healthy to have a good mix of folks around you, whether it be political, religious viewpoints or whatever.
I doubt people here would argue with this statement.
However, having these people around is one thing, having their religion forced on school kids is something quite different.
There is no harm in Creationists having their belief. But, when they insist that it's science and want it to be treated on the same level as geology or biology, that's when we sit up and say, "hold on a sec."
Just because one group of people lacks a certain level of education doesn't mean we need to lower the nations stardard to their level. Giving an inch here means that we should cave in and teach only Biblical history, since nothing that happened after the Bible was published is within it's pages.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Steve8, posted 09-07-2005 7:32 PM Steve8 has not replied

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 175 of 306 (241199)
09-08-2005 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Steve8
09-07-2005 11:04 PM


Re: Quite possible?
Looked at the link about the Chinese language. Wow, that's really grasping at straws.
Rather than get into answers about your replies about the flood etc, gonna propose a new thread about the flood and dinosaurs to try and get this one back to the main topic of:
"Why read the Bible literally"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Steve8, posted 09-07-2005 11:04 PM Steve8 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Steve8, posted 09-08-2005 12:48 PM Nuggin has replied

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 184 of 306 (241360)
09-08-2005 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Steve8
09-08-2005 12:48 PM


Re: Quite possible?
I'd love to talk about monotheistic China / other cultures. Let's start a thread about it. Put that language link in it, we'll discuss that too

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Steve8, posted 09-08-2005 12:48 PM Steve8 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Steve8, posted 09-09-2005 11:33 PM Nuggin has replied

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 189 of 306 (242033)
09-10-2005 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Steve8
09-09-2005 11:33 PM


Re: Quite possible?
Works for me, try putting together a thread in proposed topics.
Make sure that you put in some data and your question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Steve8, posted 09-09-2005 11:33 PM Steve8 has not replied

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 192 of 306 (242282)
09-11-2005 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Steve8
09-11-2005 2:04 PM


Re: Quite possible?
I guess I just feel that history will repeat itself if we don't remember the lessons of the past, that we will be gradually converted to paganism without even being aware of it
Couldn't you just as easily say that history will repeat itself by Christianity coopting pagan rituals and beliefs as their own, then systematically exterminating the original practitioners?
After all, Christ died on the cross, was placed in the cave, then after a number of days, the rock was rolled back and out hopped the Easter Bunny.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Steve8, posted 09-11-2005 2:04 PM Steve8 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Steve8, posted 09-11-2005 7:08 PM Nuggin has not replied

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 231 of 306 (243625)
09-15-2005 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Steve8
09-15-2005 12:05 AM


Re: Quite possible?
Let's look at your list. The *s have been added by me and a key below explains them.
- Hospitals *
- Universities *
- Literacy and education for the masses *
- Capitalism and free enterprise ***
- Representative government *
- The separation of political powers *
- Civil liberties *
- The abolition of slavery, both in antiquity and modern times ** (b)
- Modern science **
- The discovery of the New World by Columbus *** (a)(b)
- Benevolence and charity *
- The elevation of the common man *
- High regard for human life ****
- The codifying and setting to writing of many of the world's languages *
- Greater development of art and music *
Key -
* - Brought to us not by Christians but by the Greeks and the Romans.
** - Actually opposed by Christians, especially by the Bible.
*** - Not brought to us by "Christianity" though participants may have been Christian.
(a) - Additionally, there are many many people that would argue that not only didn't Columbus discover America, but that that wasn't a particularly "positive" thing.
(b) - Columbus being the single largest slave trader the world has ever known counter indicates your suggestion about the abolition of slavery.
**** - I'll give you "high regard for human life" but only if you can show me that the Cruisades and Inquisition were both non-Christian events.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Steve8, posted 09-15-2005 12:05 AM Steve8 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Steve8, posted 09-28-2005 11:28 PM Nuggin has replied

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 233 of 306 (243641)
09-15-2005 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by Steve8
09-15-2005 12:45 AM


Re: Fact or Illustration
There is striking evidence that all peoples on earth have come from Noah, found in the Flood stories from many cultures around the world”North and South America, South Sea Islands, Australia, Papua New Guinea, Japan, China, India, the Middle East, Europe and Africa. Hundreds of such stories have been gathered.
As we discussed in other threads. The presence of water in myths in many cultures is not evidence for a Flood event. The "floods" of Egyptian mythology are seasonal, like the floods of the Nile. The "Flood" of Norse mythology is a period of water which predates all of creation (more akin to one of the days of creation, than to Noah's flood).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Steve8, posted 09-15-2005 12:45 AM Steve8 has replied

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 Message 234 by Steve8, posted 09-15-2005 3:12 PM Nuggin has not replied

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 236 of 306 (243903)
09-15-2005 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by Chiroptera
09-15-2005 3:29 PM


Re: Fact or Illustration
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthropologists will tell you that a myth is often the faded memory of a real event.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hear this mostly from people who aren't anthropologists.
And, speaking as someone with a degree in Anthropology, he's just wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Chiroptera, posted 09-15-2005 3:29 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 258 of 306 (247145)
09-28-2005 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by Steve8
09-28-2005 11:28 PM


Re: Quite possible?
Your claim was that these things were brought to us by Christians. Your comments here are not refutations of my points, they are simply comments on my points.
Are you saying that you've way overstepped your bounds by claiming Christian roots to all these things, or are you claiming that the Roman's who invented medicine just didn't do it right until the Christians came along?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Steve8, posted 09-28-2005 11:28 PM Steve8 has replied

Replies to this message:
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