Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 78 (8905 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 04-20-2019 8:46 PM
36 online now:
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Post Volume:
Total: 849,926 Year: 4,963/19,786 Month: 1,085/873 Week: 441/376 Day: 72/46 Hour: 1/4


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
...
56
7
89
...
20NextFF
Author Topic:   Department Of Homeland Security Inaction At the Top
Silent H
Member (Idle past 3925 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 91 of 297 (240806)
09-06-2005 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by berberry
09-06-2005 8:47 AM


Re: FEMA
I just can't wait to go down there and drink mint julips on the front porch.

Chiro beat me to the punch. I was actually going to say the same thing. Anyone interested in protesting this fiasco ought to go to Lott's house and say the president sent them. I'd love to see his estate overrun by thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of protestors.

Not because I hate Lott so much, but because it points up how ridiculous and thoughtless Bush can be. He seems to have no clue what effects his words and actions have.


holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by berberry, posted 09-06-2005 8:47 AM berberry has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 297 (240852)
09-06-2005 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Silent H
09-06-2005 8:33 AM


Please Bush apologizers, tell me this is making you guys sick as well?

No way, dude. This is just what they want to hear. "Hrm, I wonder if those folks from New Orleans are really hard up? Maybe I should do something to help - oh, what's that, Barbara Bush? Heck, I guess you're right! This is the best thing that's ever happened to those folks! Guess I don't need to feel bad for them at all. Thank goodness."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Silent H, posted 09-06-2005 8:33 AM Silent H has not yet responded

Peal
Member (Idle past 2805 days)
Posts: 64
Joined: 03-11-2004


Message 93 of 297 (240868)
09-06-2005 4:39 PM


To me, being we are a nation at war, why with 90 percent of the oil production in the Gulf of Mexico halted, with a time span of months to years before this production is reestablished, some will never be back online, with the refinery infrastructure in the area disabled, and two major pipelines that supply fuel to the east and northeast, at reduced capacity, this was not seen as a threat to national security? Why didn’t Bush get the federal government involved immediately to manage the removal of the survivors, recovery of the dead, and the rebuilding of the infrastructure? Maybe he realizes this now; you know he is kind of slow. Now the damage control is in full force. I am sure Blanco and Nagin could have handled it better than they did, but Bush is to blame also.

But looking at the people trapped in New Orleans there are not many republican voters in those images. So why worry about them. Lets promise Blanco the world, give her a loaf of bread, and when she falls on her face, we will come in and be the heroes. You know set a platform for a republican victory next gubernatorial election.

Typical Karl Rove politics.

This message has been edited by Peal, 09-06-2005 05:21 PM


Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by crashfrog, posted 09-06-2005 6:36 PM Peal has not yet responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 297 (240890)
09-06-2005 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Peal
09-06-2005 4:39 PM


Why didn’t Bush get the federal government involved immediately to manage the removal of the survivors, recovery of the dead, and the rebuilding of the infrastructure?

Apparently he was too busy making sure that FEMA actually turned away volunteers, donations,and civil and military aid. Headlines at FEMA's own website? "First responders urged not to respond".

Edit: Read the part about the trucks being turned away...PB

This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 09-06-2005 06:35 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Peal, posted 09-06-2005 4:39 PM Peal has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 09-06-2005 6:52 PM crashfrog has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 95 of 297 (240894)
09-06-2005 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by crashfrog
09-06-2005 6:36 PM


Can you substantiate that?
I'm on FEMAs site as I write this but I don't see the headline you suggest.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by crashfrog, posted 09-06-2005 6:36 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by crashfrog, posted 09-06-2005 6:57 PM jar has not yet responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 297 (240895)
09-06-2005 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by jar
09-06-2005 6:52 PM


Re: Can you substantiate that?
Well, not quite a headline as I said - misunderstood the DailyKos article, but here it is:

http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=18470


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 09-06-2005 6:52 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by AdminJar, posted 09-06-2005 7:02 PM crashfrog has responded

AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 297 (240898)
09-06-2005 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by crashfrog
09-06-2005 6:57 PM


Re: Can you substantiate that?
Even your link does not support your assertion. It is a classic example of quote mining. The full quote seems to be...

WASHINGTON D.C. -- Michael D. Brown, Under Secretary of Homeland Security for Emergency Preparedness and Response and head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), today urged all fire and emergency services departments not to respond to counties and states affected by Hurricane Katrina without being requested and lawfully dispatched by state and local authorities under mutual aid agreements and the Emergency Management Assistance Compact.

“The response to Hurricane Katrina must be well coordinated between federal, state and local officials to most effectively protect life and property,” Brown said. “We appreciate the willingness and generosity of our Nation’s first responders to deploy during disasters. But such efforts must be coordinated so that fire-rescue efforts are the most effective possible.”

I have highlighted the part you left out that changes the intent and meaning of the FEMA release.

In addition, the release was from the 29th. and so very early in the incident.

I think it would be good if you go back and edit a notice into your post clarifying what was really said.


New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.

Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
Message 1
Thread Reopen Requests
Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum

Other useful links:

Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by crashfrog, posted 09-06-2005 6:57 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by crashfrog, posted 09-06-2005 7:09 PM AdminJar has responded
 Message 103 by crashfrog, posted 09-06-2005 9:05 PM AdminJar has not yet responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 297 (240905)
09-06-2005 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by AdminJar
09-06-2005 7:02 PM


Re: Can you substantiate that?
I have highlighted the part you left out that changes the intent and meaning of the FEMA release.

I don't appreciate you adopting admin mode in a discussion you've participated in, and as this appears to be not an act of moderation but Jar merely disagreeing with my interpretation of an article, I've chosen to ignore your suggestion, as it appears that you've posted as admin by mistake.

Moreover I don't see that the passage you've quoted changes the intent or meaning of the press release as I referred to it. Perhaps you can explain how?

In addition, the release was from the 29th. and so very early in the incident.

When, indeed, any kind of aid whatsoever - regardless of origin or oversight - would have been needed.

Notice too that the release does not say "fire and emergency services not dispatched by aid agreements should report to a staging area and await orders, so that they can immediately spring into action", it says that they shouldn't go anywhere at all, so that it could take days for these volunteers to reach anywhere they might be useful once FEMA decides to call for them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by AdminJar, posted 09-06-2005 7:02 PM AdminJar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by AdminJar, posted 09-06-2005 7:12 PM crashfrog has responded

AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 297 (240908)
09-06-2005 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by crashfrog
09-06-2005 7:09 PM


It was not posted in Admin mode by mistake.
And it appears that you cannot take suggested moderation.


New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.

Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
Message 1
Thread Reopen Requests
Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum

Other useful links:

Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by crashfrog, posted 09-06-2005 7:09 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by crashfrog, posted 09-06-2005 7:14 PM AdminJar has responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 297 (240909)
09-06-2005 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by AdminJar
09-06-2005 7:12 PM


Re: It was not posted in Admin mode by mistake.
And it appears that you cannot take suggested moderation.

What moderation was contained in your post? You told me to edit my post to reflect your interpretation of the article.

I'm sorry but that's neither appropriate moderation nor appropriate behavior for a moderator. I'm amazed, Jar. I've never seen you abuse your privledges to this degree before.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by AdminJar, posted 09-06-2005 7:12 PM AdminJar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by AdminJar, posted 09-06-2005 7:16 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 297 (240910)
09-06-2005 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by crashfrog
09-06-2005 7:14 PM


Re: It was not posted in Admin mode by mistake.
You are suspended indefinitely. You may email Percy for reinstatement.


New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.

Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
Message 1
Thread Reopen Requests
Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum

Other useful links:

Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by crashfrog, posted 09-06-2005 7:14 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

RAZD
Member
Posts: 19811
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 102 of 297 (240915)
09-06-2005 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by berberry
09-06-2005 8:44 AM


Re: FEMA
If you'll do a search on her quote you'll have no trouble finding the audio.

American Public Media Archive (click)

You need realplayer to listen to it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by berberry, posted 09-06-2005 8:44 AM berberry has not yet responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 297 (240938)
09-06-2005 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by AdminJar
09-06-2005 7:02 PM


Re: Can you substantiate that?
It is a classic example of quote mining.

I'm sorry that a genuine mistake was viewed as "quote mining", though it's not clear to me how I could be accused of mining quotes without actually quoting from the article.

But, to set my remarks in context and defend myself against the accusation of willful deception, let me show you the text of the article that I did read, and what led me to make the comments I did:

quote:
Can FEMA Do Anything Right?
by DavidNYC
Mon Sep 5th, 2005 at 13:04:55 PDT

Just take a look at this list of stories:


FEMA won't accept Amtrak's help in evacuations

FEMA turns away experienced firefighters

FEMA turns back Wal-Mart supply trucks

FEMA prevents Coast Guard from delivering diesel fuel

FEMA won't let Red Cross deliver food

FEMA bars morticians from entering New Orleans

We know FEMA's budget and operations have been gutted. We know FEMA's currently run by a washed-up hack attorney who couldn't even get a job at Jacoby & Myers. But this is beyond outrageous. I am sure there are plenty more stories like this; I collected these in just ten minutes on Google News and DKos. Looking at this list, it would be hard to blame you if you thought FEMA actively wanted rescue and relief operations to fail.

Of course, that's not the case - but these ranks failures transcend even the corrupt indifference we've grown sadly accustomed to over the past five years. If there's any hope for the recovery efforts, it'll come from guys like Lt. Gen. Russel L. Honoré and Clinton-era FEMA director James Lee Witt, not criminal incompetents like Michael D. "Brownie" Brown.

P.S. If you know of any more stories like the above, list them in the comments - along with links - and I'll add them to the list.

Update [2005-9-5 17:10:50 by DavidNYC]:


FEMA blocks 500-boat citizen flotilla from delivering aid

FEMA fails to utilize Navy ship with 600-bed hospital on board

FEMA to Chicago: Send just one truck

FEMA turns away generators (See entry from 3:32 P.M. by Ben Morris, Slidell mayor)

FEMA: "First Responders Urged Not To Respond"

That last one sounds like an Onion headline, but, believe it or not, it's straight from FEMA's website. See also this post at Kossack 8051FSW's blog "Constructive Interference" for an even bigger list, including some not on this one. I think at this point, I'll stop updating this list, but feel free to keep adding new stories in the comments below.


from http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9/5/16455/30830

Now, I realize that I was considerably misled when this poster characterized his excerpt as "straight from FEMA's website", and it was wrong of me to have characterized this as a "headline", which I already owned up to.

But in what sense is this malicious "quote mining"? I presented the quote exactly as it was presented to me, and I sourced it. I apologize for not investigating it myself, but I did not reference the article to support any point, merely to illustrate a statement that I made - FEMA turned away aid, donations, and volunteers. And that statement is true.

I'm appreciative to whatever occured behind the scenes to allow me to post again. I will not ask for an apology from Jar because I do not believe one will be forthcoming. But I continue to believe that he has misused his moderator powers, both to bully an opponent - he did ask me to do something that, as a moderator, he certainly had the ability to do himself - and to set his rebuttal to my points beyond challenge behind a shield of moderator authority.

I don't believe it's appropriate to ask for repurcussions against Jar; I continue to believe that for the large part he acts for the good of the board. But if what I've said causes him to take a good hard look at his own behavior, as I was caused to do very recently, then I've achieved my goal.

Sorry for the brief off-topic digression. I know discussion of moderation issues belongs in the thread for that purpose, and I invite any replies to that part of my post be posted in that thread, accessable via AdminJar's signature.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by AdminJar, posted 09-06-2005 7:02 PM AdminJar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by DBlevins, posted 09-06-2005 9:41 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

Peal
Member (Idle past 2805 days)
Posts: 64
Joined: 03-11-2004


Message 104 of 297 (240939)
09-06-2005 9:21 PM


Did she ask?
With all of the discussion about whether Blanco asked Bush for help or not is sure spinning. Like Bush I failed political science too. So can someone tell me if Blanco is asking for help or not from this letter?

Pursuant to 44 CFR § 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster. I am specifically requesting emergency protective measures, direct Federal Assistance, Individual and Household Program (IHP) assistance, Special Needs Program assistance, and debris removal.

http://gov.louisiana.gov/Press_Release_detail.asp?id=976


DBlevins
Member (Idle past 1882 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 105 of 297 (240940)
09-06-2005 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by crashfrog
09-06-2005 9:05 PM


Re: Can you substantiate that?
I am sure you have read Peal's post below and I would have to say that not only does it substantiate your claims above but is just about outright damning for the Bush administrations handling of the disaster. They requested federal assistance starting Aug. 27 according to the LA Gov's website.

I am really beginning to think that this was not just outright incompetence but borderline criminal. (If I was more inclined to be conspiracy minded, well....)

{edited to correct date}
(Wasn't sure if you had read the LA Gov's website already.)

This message has been edited by DBlevins, 09-06-2005 10:21 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by crashfrog, posted 09-06-2005 9:05 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

Prev1
...
56
7
89
...
20NextFF
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019