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Author Topic:   Help Lizard Breath Save Bush from Hurricane Katrina
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 31 of 205 (241009)
09-07-2005 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Tal
09-07-2005 10:28 AM


quote:
No. It's pretty ridiculous IMO. Political hackery all the way, even in the Nation's worst natural disaster ever.
Can you please explain how the OP is solely "political hackery all the way"? I thought it actually involeved the discussion of facts, timelines, and the federal response to Katrina, but maybe I'm mistaken.
It would be a major coup for you to skewer holmes by pointing out exactly where he is just playing politics in the OP, and since I didn't really read it that way, maybe you can explain to me the specific parts that seemed like hackery to you?
quote:
Some people simply hate Bush and blame him for everything.
Yes, that's true, but at least three people in this thread who do not like Bush have also said that he is not to blame for everything, so you wouldn't be talking about us.
It seems to me that you don't want to trouble yourself with actually considering the issues, so you just paint all criticisms of Bush and his appointees to be misguided because of where they come from instead of evaluating the quality of the information regardless of the source.
Some people just love Bush no matter what he does and never blame him for anything (which is the topic of this thread).
Can you honestly say that his and his FEMA and DHS appointees' responses to Katrina were exemplary?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Tal, posted 09-07-2005 10:28 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5677 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 32 of 205 (241011)
09-07-2005 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by nator
09-07-2005 10:35 AM


Ok...(sigh)
If I choose to live in a tidal plane whose responsibility is it to ensure that my property does not get flooded? And, when the inevitable happens, would I be justified in blaming my problems on the President of the United States? Is it the fault of the federal government or the Corps of Engineers for not giving me enough money to protect my property?
Even The New York Times is reporting that the state and city government had serious issues before the hurricane even made landfall, issues serious enough to cause police officers to abandon their posts and their city before the hurricane hit.
Now why was it my responsibility to pay to keep New Orleans above the water level? And, why would someone choose to purchase costal property that was below sea level? Like Sam Kinnison said, “we have deserts but we don’t live in them.”
Next, Mayor Nagin and many in the media are criticizing FEMA and the President for a delayed response in the relief effort. These are more brainless accusations made in ignorance. President Bush declared a state of emergency before Katrina even made landfall so FEMA could preposition its relief effort. What was not predicted was the need to evacuate and feed half a million people from a flooded and crime ridden city. To my recollection, this is a feat which has never been accomplished before. The closest comparison I can imagine would be the Normandy invasion but the allies practiced for months and then only transported 156, 000.
If Mayor Nagin thinks that FEMA should have used their crystal ball to predict and better prepare then why didn’t he use his to better evacuate his city or reinforce the dikes with New Orleans funds before Katrina?
Finally, we have a class within our society which I have started calling feral humans. Some of these feral humans are making a mess of the rescue effort in New Orleans. For those who would rape and murder during the rescue effort I suggest 168 grains of justice propelled by 44.5 grains of determination which I can produce at a cost of around 25 cents. As for the looters, I can forgive those acquiring food but those looting anything other than food or water should be identified, prosecuted, and sentenced to the maximum the law allows. “We have no way of washing our clothes” is no excuse. I have personally worn the same clothes under extreme for much more than 5 days.
This message has been edited by Tal, 09-07-2005 10:43 AM

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 33 of 205 (241019)
09-07-2005 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Tal
09-07-2005 10:42 AM


What was not predicted was the need to evacuate and feed half a million people from a flooded and crime ridden city. To my recollection, this is a feat which has never been accomplished before. The closest comparison I can imagine would be the Normandy invasion but the allies practiced for months and then only transported 156, 000.
This was predicted 8 years ago! the question is, why wasn't there a plan?
Further, as recently as last year, Cuba accomplished such a task. Are we not better equiped than Cuba?
If Mayor Nagin thinks that FEMA should have used their crystal ball to predict and better prepare then why didn’t he use his to better evacuate his city or reinforce the dikes with New Orleans funds before Katrina?
FEMA didn't need a crystal ball, it had been predicted 8 years prior! An award winning series of articles written in 2002 described just such an event in detail! Computer simulations had been done and FEMA was well aware of the potential disaster. BUT THERE WAS NO PLAN IN PLACE!
Remember, the govt. was presented with a document specifying the 3 major disasters likely to hit the country. Among the top 3 was a Cat 5 hitting NO and busting the Levys.
How do you feel about these facts?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Tal, posted 09-07-2005 10:42 AM Tal has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 205 (241022)
09-07-2005 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Tal
09-07-2005 10:42 AM


quote:
If I choose to live in a tidal plane....
Hi, Tal. Do you really think that people choose to live where they do on a whim?
Edited to add:
I haven't seen you around for a while. I hope you have been well.
This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 07-Sep-2005 03:37 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Tal, posted 09-07-2005 10:42 AM Tal has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 35 of 205 (241042)
09-07-2005 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Tal
09-07-2005 10:08 AM


No. It's pretty ridiculous IMO. Political hackery all the way, even in the Nation's worst natural disaster ever. It isn't worth the effort.
Tal, did you even read the OP? How about some of my other posts on this topic? How can this be political hackery "all the way" when:
1) I am not a democrat and so have no political reason to fight a republican,
2) I have already stated that blame will most certainly hit others, especially democrats (as they are the local officials and they did screw up), including dems during the Clinton administration (perhaps Clinton as well). I mean heck I even suggested that Clinton's call for an investigation could end up skipping over him as a target.
3) I set out that there was a screw up on all levels, and was merely addressing/asking why there were some people rushing to defend one specific person. Remember I did not start this blame game. This started in another thread and I took no part in it until I saw people rushing to defend Bush for inaccurate reasons. The thread ended and I started this one to ask people to present real evidence for their defense.
Some people simply hate Bush and blame him for everything. They aren't interested in any debate or rebuttal. It's just hate..hate...hate...
I truly dislike Bush. There can be no question about it. But what's inaccurate is to act like my current dislike for him was partisan in nature, that it was always the case, and that I blame him for everything because of my dislike.
While I did not find him very bright, I found him personable and less offensive than Al Gore. Going into the 2000 election I did not want Al Gore to win, and did not care if Bush did. And as I have said numerous times to you I am not a democrat so would have no reason to have wanted him not to win based on partisan politics.
In fact, I agreed with some of his planks that were in direct contradiction to dem standards and the Gore platform. They were traditional rep standards. I was also hopeful with rumors of Colin Powell being in his administration. I had a very very deep respect for Colin Powell.
It has been his performance, including breaking the very promises he made along traditional republican lines, which pissed me off. His inability to accept responsibility has been astounding, though much more astounding to me has been so called conservatives giving him a white wash as he blatantly breaks long time standards. The OP is specifically critical of the fact that so called conservatives rush to reinvent Bush every time he clearly stumbles and falls.
Despite my disgust with him and how he has run this nation, he is not completely to blame for everything, nor does he do everything wrong. Sometimes I even agree with his decisions... including some of his controversial ones.
Start putting forth ideas. Then, maybe, conservatives will start giving you the time of day.
Maybe you missed them because you don't want to see them but they are there. Don't talk like you are a conservative, much less that you speak for them. Haven't you noticed that some conservatives are criticizing what happened in NO, and did lay some of the blame with Bush? Not to mention I hold some conservative values, so I am in part a conservative.
Case in point.
Its called a joke. Maybe you don't like it, but it contributes nothing as evidence that the OP is political hackery based on mere hate of Bush.
So please address the OP. Some people simply love Bush and excuse every single mistake he makes. Case in point, errors were clearly made in response to hurricane Katrina. Whether they are minimal compared to errors made at the local level or by other fed administrators is besides the point. There was obviously a lack of foresight and a slow response to the emerging crisis. Yet members have rushed to his defense, yet gave no critical info to support their claims. If you have a defense, support the claims with some evidence.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Tal, posted 09-07-2005 10:08 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Tal, posted 09-07-2005 4:30 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 36 of 205 (241044)
09-07-2005 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Tal
09-07-2005 10:42 AM


If I choose to live in a tidal plane whose responsibility is it to ensure that my property does not get flooded?
This is a serious issue. Should people be allowed to build within flood plains, and tidal plains? If we as a community agree that they should, it would seem that the community has a responsibility to protect them.
If you remember 10 years ago the same thing occured, but in flood plains. Thankfully it did not hit a major city, but sure as hell hit croplands. Do you like food? Should we be farming as much as possible, including in flood plains? Hmmmm.
And, when the inevitable happens, would I be justified in blaming my problems on the President of the United States? Is it the fault of the federal government or the Corps of Engineers for not giving me enough money to protect my property?
It is not necessarily inevitable as the Dutch have proven over the last 40+ years. It would also not necessarily be the President's fault if it did happen. My OP and none of my posts have indicated that all, or even most, of this issue rests on his head.
Like Sam Kinnison said, “we have deserts but we don’t live in them.”
Tell that to the people of Las Vegas, Los Angeles, and almost everyone in Israel.
If you have a problem with people living in flood plains, how about people that live where there are frequent tornados (tornado alley), how about any coastal area subject to storms (regardless of flooding), how about earthquakes, how about forest fires, etc etc etc?
Generally most people live where some major environmental catastrophe can occur and will at some point in time. Why are you picking on one group?
President Bush declared a state of emergency before Katrina even made landfall so FEMA could preposition its relief effort.
This was in one of my posts, and I had a question attached to it. Guess this just goes to show you aren't reading my posts.
This message has been edited by holmes, 09-07-2005 02:32 PM

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 37 of 205 (241078)
09-07-2005 2:16 PM


Back on 911 where we had video footage of a man freezing up like a deer caught in the headlights at the most crucial moments in our recent history,
whoa whao whoa.
in comparison, 7 minutes is damned near instantaneous.
This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 09-07-2005 02:22 PM

אָרַח

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Yaro, posted 09-07-2005 4:20 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 38 of 205 (241090)
09-07-2005 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by arachnophilia
09-07-2005 2:16 PM


arach,
your being a bit too harsh!
I mean, bush was nice enugh to take a whole 2 days off from his 5 weak vacation! I mean, seriously, he's a busy man. We can't bother him with trifeling matters.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by arachnophilia, posted 09-07-2005 2:16 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Tal, posted 09-07-2005 4:37 PM Yaro has replied
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5677 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 39 of 205 (241091)
09-07-2005 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Silent H
09-07-2005 12:32 PM


holmes, my reply wasn't to you or your OP. It was in response to the absurd posts that followed, both of which I stated.
Tell that to the people of Las Vegas, Los Angeles, and almost everyone in Israel.
While Isreal does have deserts, it has alot of farmland and the best fishing in the world. It isn't a desert country.
And yes, if you choose to live in NO, that's your fault. I'm from Louisiana. My wife is from Louisiana. My uncle is a psychologist with an MBA that just retired from working at a prison in New Orleans. Their house, which they haven't sold yet, is still in Belle Chase (uppity subdivision). I remember many times when we would talk about the state of New Orleans' water problems just waiting to happen. Luckily, my Uncle retired and moved to Baton Rouge 2 months ago.
*EDIT 2*
We paid out (notice WE..not the US Government) 1.9 million dollars on average to victims' families from 911. I wonder how much we are going to pay all the victims of Katrina?
This message has been edited by Tal, 09-07-2005 04:40 PM

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Silent H, posted 09-07-2005 12:32 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Silent H, posted 09-07-2005 6:11 PM Tal has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5677 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 40 of 205 (241093)
09-07-2005 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Yaro
09-07-2005 4:20 PM


arach,
your being a bit too harsh!
I mean, bush was nice enugh to take a whole 2 days off from his 5 weak vacation! I mean, seriously, he's a busy man. We can't bother him with trifeling matters.
That would be...week.
But this is just more evidence of political hackery. You lefties keep it up. You aren't winning people over with your ideas, mainly because you don't have any, but also because all you do is piss and moan about Bush and his administration. All this does is cause you to lose elections by an even larger margin.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Yaro, posted 09-07-2005 4:20 PM Yaro has replied

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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 41 of 205 (241099)
09-07-2005 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Tal
09-07-2005 4:37 PM


But this is just more evidence of political hackery. You lefties keep it up. You aren't winning people over with your ideas, mainly because you don't have any, but also because all you do is piss and moan about Bush and his administration. All this does is cause you to lose elections by an even larger margin
The pendulum will swing the other way and you guys will be pissing and moaning just like ya were the last 8 years.

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 42 of 205 (241110)
09-07-2005 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Tal
09-07-2005 4:30 PM


holmes, my reply wasn't to you or your OP.
Tal, schraf asked if you were going to respond to the OP. You said you didn't have to because blah blah blah. I then quoted your blah blah blah in my response. So if you only meant the non OP posts, that's fine, but then that means you were not answering schraf's question.
While Isreal does have deserts, it has alot of farmland and the best fishing in the world. It isn't a desert country.
There may be fishing, but that does not stop it from being a desert. From what I understand the farmland is almost entirely land reclaimed from the desert, just like LA and LV. That is they put in a lot of money to alter the landscape (like we do with levees). You may correct me if I am wrong on that but that's what the Israelis have been claiming for some time now... it was a desert until they changed it.
And yes, if you choose to live in NO, that's your fault. I'm from Louisiana. My wife is from Louisiana. My uncle is a psychologist with an MBA that just retired from working at a prison in New Orleans. Their house, which they haven't sold yet, is still in Belle Chase (uppity subdivision). I remember many times when we would talk about the state of New Orleans' water problems just waiting to happen.
You totally avoided dealing with my argument. I agree that people choose to live where they live, and people who live in flood plains (coastal or other) are taking risks. I wouldn't call it "fault", but "risk".
Now deal with the argument I provided to you. No matter where one lives there is almost some measure, sometimes a great measure or risk from natural disaster. Unfortunately that is life. And so people are forced to choose the nature and level of risk they wish to face.
If you really wanted to remove flood risk then many farming communities would be gone. Tornado risk, same deal. The list goes on. What you need to do is define what risk is unacceptable to either allow people to live there, or provide protection for them.
We paid out (notice WE..not the US Government) 1.9 million dollars on average to victims' families from 911. I wonder how much we are going to pay all the victims of Katrina?
That's funny, how much did WE (notice that is WE) have to pay fatcats, including a Bush clan member, from the savings and loan bailout. Suddenly people who voluntarily put money at risk to make money, stole other people's money and lost it, and we had to pay them back.
So what's the big deal if we pay for people that actually face a natural disaster or terrorist attack?
And by the way, there is something rather cowardly in your position. It seems you are arguing against humans controlling their environment to reclaim land and improve their condition. Sure people could always keep retreating, but they don't have to.
One might also note that Louisiana's problems were not static, but growing due to subsidence, which was pretty much a direct result of a Army Corps of Engineer's screw up. One would think the people deserve some amount of protection and payback for an error made by the federal gov't which they did not have control over.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Tal, posted 09-07-2005 4:30 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Tal, posted 09-08-2005 7:51 AM Silent H has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 43 of 205 (241164)
09-07-2005 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Yaro
09-07-2005 4:20 PM


arach,
your being a bit too harsh!
I mean, bush was nice enugh to take a whole 2 days off from his 5 weak vacation! I mean, seriously, he's a busy man. We can't bother him with trifeling matters.
honestly, i think people are a bit harsh on bush, more so than other presidents. i think the "7 minutes to respond!" and "OMG he's on vacation!" are just silly rabble-rousing michael moore lines.
true vacations aren't that common anymore. you think the leader of the free world doesn't have a cell phone? or he isn't constantly surrounded by advisors of some kind? in the modern world, how hard do you think it is to work from a remote location?
those "vacation" days count way more than they should. they're just counting days out of the whitehouse, including public appearances.
don't get me wrong, i'm no bush supporter. i've protested nearly everything the man has done. i just care more about actual action and policy than where the president chooses to spend his time. i don't think that he's doing enough for nola and miss, but i don't think the vacation claims are exactly fair either.
This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 09-07-2005 09:17 PM

אָרַח

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 44 of 205 (241165)
09-07-2005 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Tal
09-07-2005 4:37 PM


You lefties keep it up. You aren't winning people over with your ideas, mainly because you don't have any,
and bush is not winning people over with his actions, either. mainly because he hasn't had any.
tal, the country is starting to wake up and smell the bullshit, finally. that "liberal" media that's been without a spine for 5 years is growing one. democrats are questioning the administration -- even republicans apparently. approval ratings are dropping like mad.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Tal, posted 09-07-2005 4:37 PM Tal has replied

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 Message 46 by Tal, posted 09-08-2005 7:26 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 45 of 205 (241233)
09-08-2005 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by arachnophilia
09-07-2005 9:16 PM


i think the "7 minutes to respond!"
Wait a minute, were you seriously punking on my comment regarding Bush's failure to act after receiving news that a second plane had hit the WTC?
That video tape of him getting the news and looking stunned, while carrying on with a press op, when the US is under attack, has absolutely no defense. It is not "moore-like" criticism at all. The man, regardless of any of his other qualities, was clearly lacking in leadership skills.
In much much much less time than that, I was communicating with anyone and everyone I could so that they would be alerted to what was going on. He was the top person in this nation, and so held up national response.
When Pearl Harbor was attacked, would it have been acceptable for any of the men, especially the leaders, to wait 7 minutes as the attack went on?
Contrary to your earlier description of 7 minutes being very short, that is actually a very long time in a crisis. This is where the leaders get separated from the chaff. In those seven minutes you could watch him slowly floating to the floor. Chaff.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by arachnophilia, posted 09-07-2005 9:16 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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