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Author Topic:   Help Lizard Breath Save Bush from Hurricane Katrina
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 205 (241292)
09-08-2005 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Silent H
09-08-2005 10:52 AM


quote:
That is not to mention the degree of lawlessness seen in Indonesia's Tsunami. The size of this storm and potentials for flooding should have had thinkers making comparisons when drawing up plans.
Be careful, holmes. Fairly recently another poster got real mad at me when I suggested that Americans weren't much different than other people in the world.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Silent H, posted 09-08-2005 10:52 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Silent H, posted 09-08-2005 11:03 AM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5841 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 77 of 205 (241293)
09-08-2005 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Tal
09-08-2005 10:45 AM


Re: The Plan
Abstinence works everytime its tried. That is, not having sex until you are married.
So does masturbation, oral, and anal sex. Not one person has ever, nor could ever get pregnant through those activities.
Of course what was being discussed was education. Abstinence education has not worked everytime. Not only do some people slide, leaving them back in the same boat as before the abstinence training, but some people when they finally reach the family stage are wholly ignorant of the safe sex techniques they will still need to employ.
Choosing when to engage in sex is an issue steeped in moral values (including religious ones). How to have safe sex is simply a physical description which one uses in conjunction with the personal moral values.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Tal, posted 09-08-2005 10:45 AM Tal has not replied

  
Lizard Breath
Member (Idle past 6717 days)
Posts: 376
Joined: 10-19-2003


Message 78 of 205 (241294)
09-08-2005 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Yaro
09-08-2005 10:20 AM


Re: The Plan
Further, maybe if we had BETTER EDUCATION and actually taught SAFE SEX, we would have less people getting pregnant out of wedlock and more people getting good jobs.
Falacy. Teaching any kind of Sex, even Safe does nothing to reduce pregnacies. What is does accomplish is reinforce the curiosity factor in youth and add a sence of legitimacy to sex out of weddlock. This has been known for years and is used effectivly in schools to seduce young minds into participating in this type of socially destructive behavior.
The only way to reduce pregnancies out of weddlock is to teach abstinance until marriage and then committed monogamy. To be taken seriously, it must be backed up with moral absolutes dictated by a source outside of the human dimension.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Yaro, posted 09-08-2005 10:20 AM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Silent H, posted 09-08-2005 11:01 AM Lizard Breath has not replied
 Message 81 by Modulous, posted 09-08-2005 11:03 AM Lizard Breath has not replied
 Message 82 by Yaro, posted 09-08-2005 11:04 AM Lizard Breath has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5841 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 79 of 205 (241295)
09-08-2005 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Lizard Breath
09-08-2005 10:58 AM


Re: The Plan
Falacy. Teaching any kind of Sex, even Safe does nothing to reduce pregnacies. What is does accomplish is reinforce the curiosity factor in youth and add a sence of legitimacy to sex out of weddlock.
You are correct. Everything you said in your post is a fallacy. But lets not get into this here. Everyone please return to Katrina. Someone open a thread on sex education and shift this debate there. Thank you.
And yes, I know I started contributing to the diversion myself. I was wrong.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Lizard Breath, posted 09-08-2005 10:58 AM Lizard Breath has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5841 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 80 of 205 (241296)
09-08-2005 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Chiroptera
09-08-2005 10:57 AM


Fairly recently another poster got real mad at me when I suggested that Americans weren't much different than other people in the world.
I hope it wasn't me. Did I say something like that?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Chiroptera, posted 09-08-2005 10:57 AM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 81 of 205 (241297)
09-08-2005 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Lizard Breath
09-08-2005 10:58 AM


Topic Drift
I feel a terminal topic drift coming rapidly here.
There is actually an open thread dealing with this, you haven't posted in it, so perhaps you can expand on your ideas there where they can be discussed (that is to say, I might actually be interested in discussing this, or at least see it being discussed, and it can't carry on here)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Lizard Breath, posted 09-08-2005 10:58 AM Lizard Breath has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6517 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 82 of 205 (241299)
09-08-2005 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Lizard Breath
09-08-2005 10:58 AM


Re: The Plan
Falacy. Teaching any kind of Sex, even Safe does nothing to reduce pregnacies.
Bullshit. Education is the key to creating rational individuals who will make apropriate decisions. None the less, even by your own logic the abstinance programs are compleate a faliur.
What is does accomplish is reinforce the curiosity factor in youth and add a sence of legitimacy to sex out of weddlock.
There IS legitimacy to sex out of weddlock. If it's done by consenting individuals who understand what is going on and take the proper precautions. If a child is raised correctly they can have a healthy, responsible, attitude about sex even if it is 'pre-marital'
This has been known for years and is used effectivly in schools to seduce young minds into participating in this type of socially destructive behavior.
No it hasn't. Thats idiotic. do you have any proof? Because all I have seen is data to the contrary.
OPEN A NEW THREAD ABOUT SEX EDUCATION TO CONTINUE THIS DISCUSION PLEASE

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Lizard Breath, posted 09-08-2005 10:58 AM Lizard Breath has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Tal, posted 09-08-2005 12:06 PM Yaro has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5698 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 83 of 205 (241318)
09-08-2005 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Yaro
09-08-2005 10:54 AM


Re: The Plan
Bullshit, we are humans, we like sex, it's part of our nature. You ain't gonna make anyone stop having it.
Incorrect. I'm living proof. I know many people that have waited until marriage to have sex. It is called self control.
Ah, so you know them personaly?
Yes.
Further, how is your hometown representative of the poor in the greater USA?
Low or no income families on welfare and living in projects.
You 'right-wing' people can never seem to think beyond your own experience.
As opposed to you "left-wing" people who think government is the solution to all your problems.
But the sollution is not to put them out on the street and cut their aid, it's to follow-up wellfare with an actual road out of it.
I agree.
I mean, they get on wellfare cuz their poor and uneducated, so now they got some money to get themselves stable. But guess what? no decent schools, not enugh money, no medical care, etc. etc. Just gets them deeper into the hole.
they're poor...they have some money....enough money....
What does decent schools mean? I went to the same schools (mostly low income black middle school/high school) and I provide for my family with little government help. Yes, I went on WIC when my first kid was born to make things a little easier, but it was a temporary hand. My point is the education systems, even though Louisiana ranks among the lowest, if not the lowest, education system in the US; still work. That's where I got most of my education, with the exception of my last 2 years of highschool, where I went to a private christain school. I still applied myself and made good grades. That gets you into college. Some of these poor kids (like I was) do just that. They make better for themselves.
What I think happens is that the welfare recipients don't have any motivation to change the status quo. They have a house. They have food. They have income from their jobs. Why shake things up?
No medical care? I still don't know anyone that has been turned away from a hostpital. Women who have zero insurance can still go to the women and children's hospital and have their babies for free. Free of course meaning others pay for it, but free to them.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Yaro, posted 09-08-2005 10:54 AM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Yaro, posted 09-08-2005 12:16 PM Tal has replied
 Message 88 by Silent H, posted 09-08-2005 12:37 PM Tal has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5698 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 84 of 205 (241319)
09-08-2005 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Yaro
09-08-2005 11:04 AM


Re: The Plan
No it hasn't. Thats idiotic. do you have any proof? Because all I have seen is data to the contrary.
No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.newsnet5.com/news/4885861/detail.html

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Yaro, posted 09-08-2005 11:04 AM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Yaro, posted 09-08-2005 12:10 PM Tal has not replied
 Message 90 by Silent H, posted 09-08-2005 12:40 PM Tal has replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6517 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 85 of 205 (241321)
09-08-2005 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Tal
09-08-2005 12:06 PM


Re: The Plan
Off topic. We can discuss this further in another thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Tal, posted 09-08-2005 12:06 PM Tal has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6517 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 86 of 205 (241324)
09-08-2005 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Tal
09-08-2005 12:03 PM


Re: The Plan
Incorrect. I'm living proof. I know many people that have waited until marriage to have sex. It is called self control.
That's you, now back to the rest of humanity.
Low or no income families on welfare and living in projects.
Yes, and that answers my question how? I wanna see the fugures showing the giant mass of evil poor women "popping out babies" to boost their paychecks.
As opposed to you "left-wing" people who think government is the solution to all your problems.
I don't agree that government is the solution for all problems, but govt. certainly has responsibility when it comes to the wellfare of it's citizens. Some social wellfare is not bad.
What I think happens is that the welfare recipients don't have any motivation to change the status quo. They have a house. They have food. They have income from their jobs. Why shake things up?
Ya, I can see this being the case with some people. But again, people are trapped by what they know/see around them. If they don't have anyone urging them to succeed, or providing a clear road map for them, what's to keep them from repeating the mistakes of those who raised them?
I don't think it's that "they don't want to shake things up", it seems to me it's more of a case of nowhere to go. I mean, who is going to set the example and who is educating them on how to improve their sittuation? Someone has to. I think this is the faliur of wellfare.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Tal, posted 09-08-2005 12:03 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Tal, posted 09-08-2005 12:22 PM Yaro has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5698 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 87 of 205 (241325)
09-08-2005 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Yaro
09-08-2005 12:16 PM


Re: The Plan
That's you, now back to the rest of humanity.
So are you suggesting I am the only human on earth with self control?
I think we mostly agree on the rest.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Yaro, posted 09-08-2005 12:16 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Yaro, posted 09-08-2005 1:07 PM Tal has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5841 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 88 of 205 (241328)
09-08-2005 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Tal
09-08-2005 12:03 PM


Re: The Plan
As opposed to you "left-wing" people who think government is the solution to all your problems.
I want to thank you for providing that definition. Now please never call me "left-wing" again. I mean I really don't think its bad to be left or right, but I am not either in a strict way, and certainly do not believe gov't is the solution to all your problems.
But again I point out the irony, the Iraq War's premise is that gov't is the solution to all your problems. Maybe now you can understand why people with conservative positions actually can dislike the Iraq War.
I went to the same schools (mostly low income black middle school/high school) and I provide for my family with little government help.
If you worked in the army then you made all your money from from the gov't, and thus the taxpayer. That would be just like the people employed to build and maintain levee systems.
My point is the education systems, even though Louisiana ranks among the lowest, if not the lowest, education system in the US; still work. That's where I got most of my education, with the exception of my last 2 years of highschool, where I went to a private christain school
Your poor logic skills, and grasp of basic science, does not suggest that wherever you went "worked" for you. Although this seems like an ad hominem it really isn't. You seem to avoid logic in your arguments (or analyzing your citations), and repeatedly mischaracterize scientific theories.
What I think happens is that the welfare recipients don't have any motivation to change the status quo. They have a house. They have food. They have income from their jobs. Why shake things up?
The same can and should be said for corporate welfare. The singular difference is that when poor people get money from the gov't, the money ends back in the economy as they spend as much as they get. Wealthy and corporate recipients use their benefits to create personal wealth to remove money from the economy.
No medical care? I still don't know anyone that has been turned away from a hostpital. Women who have zero insurance can still go to the women and children's hospital and have their babies for free. Free of course meaning others pay for it, but free to them.
It sure as hell does happen. In fact in Chicago there was a scandal when a person died outside of a hospital because he was not covered and so they could not admit him. In the end it was decided no one was at fault because that is how the system works.
I will add that I was poor for a very long time and also quite ill. I could not get ANY of the tests required to diagnose my condition. Without coverage there was nothing that could be done until possibly I was on the verge of death.
You might want to ask how much we end up having to pay as a whole by having to treat the poor in emergency settings only (if and when we treat them), rather than in preventative ways. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure and all that.
It also seems a bit silly to be the only first world nation (except Holland as of January) to not have a socialized medical system. The proof is in, and they really do work.
As it is the system we have is the same, except with higher prices, and no guarantee that the central location you pay for your "medical insurance" will in fact pay for your costs when you become ill, if in fact you can afford insurance in the first place.
Socialized medicine is not an argument that gov't is an answer to people's problems, but a benefit we can give ourselves so that illness does not become financially debilitating. Its choosing a single, noncommerical HMO, which inherently reduces costs and provides better coverage.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Tal, posted 09-08-2005 12:03 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Tal, posted 09-08-2005 12:50 PM Silent H has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5698 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 89 of 205 (241329)
09-08-2005 12:39 PM


13% say Bush is mostly responsible
A CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll of 609 adults taken September 5-6 shows:
Blame Game -- 13% said George W. Bush is "most responsible for the problems in New Orleans after the hurricane"; 18% said "federal agencies"; 25% said "state and local officials"; 38% said "no one is to blame"; 6% had no opinion. -- 29% said that "top officials in the federal agencies responsible for handling emergencies should be fired"; 63% said they should not; 8% had no opinion.
Like the left's many other attempts to get Bush, this one has had zero effect. Blame Bush for everything! Keep it up. You aren't convicing anyone. Send me your hurricanes, Cindy Sheehans, false reporting with forged documents, and Michael Moores.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein

Replies to this message:
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 Message 92 by Silent H, posted 09-08-2005 12:47 PM Tal has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5841 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 90 of 205 (241331)
09-08-2005 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Tal
09-08-2005 12:06 PM


Re: The Plan
That's a link, not a response. And the link does not prove anything. It doesn't state whether they had sex ed education before or not, and whether the proposes solution is to cut sex ed and teach abstinence only.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Tal, posted 09-08-2005 12:06 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Tal, posted 09-08-2005 12:54 PM Silent H has not replied

  
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