SIMPLE common anscestors had fewer but MORE COMPLEX systems: genomics

dear All,you write:quote:
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Originally posted by SLPx:quote:
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Originally posted by Randy:quote:
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Bottlenecks, subsequent drift, radiation events, all could account for considerable diversity among genomes within 5K years.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Bottlenecks, now there’s an interesting point. Don’t bottlenecks show up in the genome of species that went through a bottleneck? Why don’t all species show evidence of a bottleneck about 5,000 years ago? You are claiming that the bottleneck was down to 2 of each kind (whatever that is). Why is there no genetic evidence of all these bottlenecks? Why don’t humans have more genetic diversity than most animals? Weren’t there supposed to be 8 humans and only two of each unclean kind on the ark? Humans should have more diversity in our species than the entire genus (or maybe family or at least Kind) of unclean Kinds. Does genetic analysis show this? I don’t think so. Why not?
Randy--------------------------------------------------------------------------------I predict that this post will get no reply.Certainly no substantive one...--------------------------------------------------------------------------------===================You won that betI write:There are a couple of problems here:The first one -- and I mentioned this in a previous letter to Mammuthus-- is the observation that distinct paradigms will lead to distinct interpretations of data.1) According to the evolutionists paradigm it is expected to do certain observations. The evolutionists paradigm assumes common descent and according to their paradigm this must lead to bottlenecks in the case of the flood. It is extremely important to note that one paradigm cannot be applied to the other. So, Randy's questions are invalid since he expects something from the one paradigm to be applicable for the other paradigm. They are, however, mutually exclusive and cannot be simultaneously applied.
In the paradigm of the MPG such bottlenecks are less relevant, since all information is already present in the genome. Besides, mutations can be introduced rapidly through non-random (directed) mechanisms.2) The second problem is the DNA dating analysis [see my comments on mtDNA --> 10 mutations/62000 years in human, 24 in chimps (5-10.000.000 years) and 27 in neanderthaler (500.000 years), and see the ZFY region in human/primates]. In conclusion, DNA dating analysis are not accurate, and are probably not even valid. They are always calibrated subject paleontological data, and/or with respect to interspecies comparison. The problem is: the evolutionary paradigm allows for interspecies comparison, while the MPG doesn't (for obvious reasons). If for instance only WITHIN species comparisons are carried out we find completely distinct dates for human origin. That is the reason why evolutionists add 1 chimp sequence to 13 human sequences (ref: Nature 2000, vol408, p708-713.) Otherwise the data do NOT fit the evolutionary paradigm!I bet, I've seen it through. Best wishes,
Peter[This message has been edited by peter borger, 11-17-2002]

Dear mammuthus,PB:
If for instance only WITHIN species comparisons are carried out we find completely distinct dates for human origin. That is the reason why evolutionists add 1 chimp sequence to 13 human sequences (ref: Nature 2000, vol408, p708-713.) Otherwise the data do NOT fit the evolutionary paradigm!M: That is your own personal religious fundie paradigm...all it says is that the molecular clock is not accurate which hardly damages the fact of evolution.PB: It has nothing to do with my own personal religious paradigm. And by the way you know nothing about my religious paradigms. Maybe I do not even have a religious paradigm. All I did is expose your religion as scientifically false.
I studied almost all recent papers in Science and Nature on evolutionism and I know I've seen it through. I know how they keep up the appearance of evolutionism. It has, however, nothing in common with science (add one chimp to a couple of human sequences and voila, everything looks fine!!!). Now, you try to backpedal by questioning the validity if the genetic clock. I do not only question the validity of the clock, I question the paradigm of common descent in general.
As I see it, evolutionism has fallen through molecular biology. Better believe it!
By now, you should have convinced me that evolutionism is true. All you do is defend the old paradigm and rebut my new hypothesis. It looks a lot like the up-side-down world.Best wishes,
Peter

Dear mammuthus,PB:
2) The second problem is the DNA dating analysis [see my comments on mtDNA --> 10 mutations/62000 years in human, 24 in chimps (5-10.000.000 years) and 27 in neanderthaler (500.000 years), and see the ZFY region in human/primates].M: You should read the neandertal paper again...the 27 differences are based on comparisons to a distribution of variation in humans. Since the first publication, there are two more neandertal sequences.PB: the other two sequences demonstratede 23 and 28 differences. (Nature 2000, 404: 490-94)M: 10 mutations in which chimps?PB: Not chimp, but an ancient (62ky) human demonstrated 10 diferences compared to the modern human reference sequence.M: Bart the chimp in my freezer? Actually your above statement really does not say anything...it says there is a problem with dating and then you supply no problem.PB: That demonstrates it. Evolutionism is NO science.best wishes,
Peter

dear Mammuthus,PB: It has nothing to do with my own personal religious paradigm. And by the way you know nothing about my religious paradigms. Maybe I do not even have a religious paradigm. All I did is expose your religion as scientifically false.M: Actually you have exposed your religious agenda on several occasions including references to the "nihlism" and "atheism" of evolution (both of which are false) and have stated on at least one occassion a belief in god. Your religious paradigm and your manner of debate reveal a typical conservative fundamentalist worldview...as to my religion..it is impossible for your to show it is false as I have no religion...I am an atheist after allPB: As mentioned before: "There are many good reasons to be an atheist, the theory of evolution is not one if them" (L. Spetner in Not by Chance).PB:
I studied almost all recent papers in Science and Nature on evolutionism and I know I've seen it through.M: Funny that I have to constantly pull up references for you that you are unaware of including in Nature and Science after you say you have studied all the papers so thoroughly.PB: you mean the papers that are always discussed subject to evolutionism? You know how I think about these discussions: Useless.PB: I know how they keep up the appearance of evolutionism.M: Still angry that your paper was rejected?PB: No, I am not. I was expecting it anyway. Try to get it in as a commentary to PNAS articles. It should be noted that your answer is not related to my remark, but anyway, I guess you like saying 'nothing'.PB: It has, however, nothing in common with science (add one chimp to a couple of human sequences and voila, everything looks fine!!!).M: Your views on science are hardly the standard by which all science is measured despite your ego and desire that they should be...and by the way, the chimp sequence is called an outgroup..I know all these unfamiliar scientific terms confuse you.PB: Here is what the scientists say in the article I referred to:"From the mean genetic distance between all humans and the one chimpanzee sequence (0.17 substitutions per site) and the assumption, based on paleontological and genetic evidence [this evidence has also been derived from paleontology, since there is no direct genetic evidence that advocates the evolutionary vision; PB], of a divergence time between humans and chimpanzees of 5Myr, the mutation rate (mu) for the mitochondrial molecule, excluding the D-loop, is estimated to be 1.70 x 10(-8) substitutions per site per year." (Nature 2000, vol408, p709).Here is black on white evidence of the evolutionists trick to get genetic data in accord with their theory. The mtDNA in anient human still conflict these data. The ancient human data on mtDNA in comparison with chimp demonstrate a common ancestor of human and chimp around 150.000 BP (or non-random mechanisms). The ZFY region demonstrated a very recent origin of mankind (0-800.000 BP). Also the above data would imply a recent origin of mankind. THEREFORE, the authors have to introduce ONE chimp sequence. That's the ONLY reason why they introduce the chimp, not because it is the out-group. It's just another TRICK. (I already showed the other trick of gene-tree/family-tree reconciliation). Very unscientific!!!It is also a common trick to refer to evolutionary papers as evidence. Looking up such papers usually merely bring forth the evolutionary hypothesis. So, hypotheses are referred to as fact. Very unscientific!!!PB: Now, you try to backpedal by questioning the validity if the genetic clock. I do not only question the validity of the clock, I question the paradigm of common descent in general.M: I never backpedalled..I stated from the outset that I do not support the accuracy of a molecular clock and explained why...that you claim othewise is dishonest.PB: Common evolutionists response. As soon as the data are conflicting evolutionism, the data have to be wrong. Evolutionism cannot be wrong, the data are wrong!!! It is common evolutionists reasoning. Their logic goes like: 1) evolutionism is true, 2) data not in accord with evolutionism are wrong.
This is the up-side-down world again and has nothing in common with science. The data are correct, since they have been produced and reproduced over and over again in different laborartories all over the world. So, the data are correct, the theory is wrong. Adapt the theory!! It is no longer credible.Likewise, redundant genes are doubted to be redundant since it conflicts evolutionism's concept of selection. So, redundant genes cannot be true, the must be selected for, so called 'very weak purifying selection'. I call this 'very strong misleading humbug'. The data demonstrate that these genes can be knocked out without affecting the organism. It has been repeated over and over and the data are CORRECT. There can be only one conclusion: the theory is false.PB: As I see it, evolutionism has fallen through molecular biology. Better believe it!M: You are free to see floating green bananas with silicon breast implants floating before your eyes yelling "squeeze me" to...but since you fail to support you assertions with evidence I have no reason to believe it...if you could really find compelling evidence that required a paradigm shift I would be there right beside you cheering you on..but you have not.PB: You are free to see the one organism floating into the other. I guess you buy yourself a couple of these nice computerized animations that demonstrate the non-existing transitions fluently.PB: By now, you should have convinced me that evolutionism is true.M: I did not realize this game had a time limit LOL! I guess the quantum physics researchers better be shaking that you will come along and say convince me that the floating green banana is not responsible in 30 seconds or less or I will declare to the world that the banana is responsible for all observed phenomenon..and watch out world..when Peter declares something..well er...does something happen?PB: Back to fallacies again. Dear Mammuthus, you never learn it, quantum physics has been proven, evolution not. (Yes, I know that population genetics has been proven, but it is NOT evolutionism. Yes, I know that DNA can change over time, but it is not evolutionism. It is the MPG). Thats the difference. You cannot compare them. O yeah, now I see, YOU are allowed to compare them since evolutionists also compare chimp and man. Now I get your logics. We need new logics to understand evolutionism, I guess?PB: All you do is defend the old paradigm and rebut my new hypothesis.M: I defend science and the scientific method and your hypothesis in its current form is not science and many of the tenets of your hypothesis are falsified.PB: As shown above evolutionism has nothing to do with science. Making the data fit with a theory is NO science!! It is the up-side-down world! The MPG can be tested, and as demonstred is evne predicts properly. Evolutionism doesn't predict anything, it 'post-dicts'.PB: It looks a lot like the up-side-down world.M: Try standing on your feet instead of your head..it helps ..sorry, smart ass comment but I could not resist.PB: Wish you really had some smart ass comments in stead of this meaningless response. M: Again, I would reiterate the request that you show which of the mutations in SLPx alignment are non random. It seems like a golden opportunity to at least describe an example of this phenomenon you claim exists and at the very least would show precisely what your reasoning is for the assertion.PB: Where do you think I propose the non-random mutations? The aligned mutations, of course. THEY will give the assumption of common descent, not the other ones. This should be obvious. As promised I will have a close look at the presented sequences and discuss it in detail (next months or so)Best wishes,
peter

Dear Dr Page,quote:
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Originally posted by peter borger:
In the paradigm of the MPG such bottlenecks are less relevant, since all information is already present in the genome.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Page: What is the evidence that all of this information is already present? Please provide some evidence, perhaps from the Human Genome.PB:1) genetic redundancies having no association with gene duplication and no correlation with mutation rate, 2) jumping DNA elements affecting gene expression, 3) the human genome demonstrates approx 40000 genes, 90% with unknown function (a lot of redundancies included, I expect from MPG).quote:
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Besides, mutations can be introduced rapidly through non-random (directed) mechanisms.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Page: Please provide the evidence that such mechanisms exist.PB: Already discussed the 1G5 gene, and the mtDNA in ancient humans. They demonstrate both random and non-random mutations. Randomness with respect to nucleotide and position. Not yet proven is non-randomness as a response to the environment (when?).Page: Please also demonstrate why the following article does not demonstrate that 'directed mutations' are not what they are claimed to be:******************************************Amplification-mutagenesis: evidence that "directed" adaptive mutation and general hypermutability result from growth with a selected gene amplification.Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 2002 Feb 19;99(4):2164-9Hendrickson H, Slechta ES, Bergthorsson U, Andersson DI, Roth JR.Department of Biology, University of Utah, Salt Lake City, UT 84112, USA.When a particular lac mutant of Escherichia coli starves in the presence of lactose, nongrowing cells appear to direct mutations preferentially to sites that allow growth (adaptive mutation). This observation suggested that growth limitation stimulates mutability. Evidence is provided here that this behavior is actually caused by a standard Darwinian process in which natural selection acts in three sequential steps. First, growth limitation favors growth of a subpopulation with an amplification of the mutant lac gene; next, it favors cells with a lac(+) revertant allele within the amplified array. Finally, it favors loss of mutant copies until a stable haploid lac(+) revertant arises and overgrows the colony. By increasing the lac copy number, selection enhances the likelihood of reversion within each developing clone. This sequence of events appears to direct mutations to useful sites. General mutagenesis is a side-effect of growth with an amplification (SOS induction). The F' plasmid, which carries lac, contributes by stimulating gene duplication and amplification. ,b>Selective stress has no direct effect on mutation rate or target specificity, but acts to favor a succession of cell types with progressively improved growth on lactose. The sequence of events--amplification, mutation, segregation--may help to explain both the origins of some cancers and the evolution of new genes under selection.PB: Most importantly, it involves a DNA region that is PREEXISTING in these bacteria. The genome of E. coli contains the Lac-operon, a coding DNA-sequence alternated by stopcodons. I guess, the organism can drain this operon through recombination. It seems that in the population of E coli examined in the experiment a duplication is already present. Organisms that do not have the proper genomic set up will be selected against. It is the MPG in action. After removal of lactose and addition of complete medium it is likely that the bacteria that amplified part of the genome are selected against, since it takes more time to synthesise their chromosome, and so they will now be overgrown by the wild type.quote:
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2) The second problem is the DNA dating analysis [see my comments on mtDNA --> 10 mutations/62000 years in human, 24 in chimps (5-10.000.000 years) and 27 in neanderthaler (500.000 years), and see the ZFY region in human/primates]. In conclusion, DNA dating analysis are not accurate, and are probably not even valid. They are always calibrated subject paleontological data, and/or with respect to interspecies comparison.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Page: Please explain then how molecular dating techniques (not global clock) are congruent with fossil data. Coincidence?PB: They are not. Have a look at the species comparison of the ancient mtDNA. Chimp 24 differences with a human reference sequence, Neanderthaler 27 differences (or 23 or 28 depending on the specimen studied). Furthermore, it depends on the sequence one studies. Cytochrome c, for instance, has only one difference in chimp in comparison with human (0,3% on this gene that is highly variable throughout nature, implicating no selective constraint on the major part of the protein). I expect that one difference on a silent position can also be found in humans. In the ZFY region there is 5% difference between chimp and man. There are even genes in man not in apes (as discussed).quote:
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The problem is: the evolutionary paradigm allows for interspecies comparison, while the MPG doesn't (for obvious reasons). If for instance only WITHIN species comparisons are carried out we find completely distinct dates for human origin.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Page: Citation please?PB: From the mtDNA in ancient humans and primates (PNAS 2001, vol98, p537-542). It demonstrates a common ancestor 150.000 BP (or non-random mechanisms).Best wishes,
Peter

Dear Mammuthus,PB: As mentioned before: "There are many good reasons to be an atheist, the theory of evolution is not one if them" (L. Spetner in Not by Chance).M: I was an atheist long before I studied evolution...long before I studied biology at for that matter.PB: Apparently you didn’t understand the above sentence. It means that since evolutionism can be demonstrated to be false, atheists do not have a religion anymore.M: Funny that I have to constantly pull up references for you that you are unaware of including in Nature and Science after you say you have studied all the papers so thoroughly.PB: you mean the papers that are always discussed subject to evolutionism? You know how I think about these discussions: Useless.M: Funny, you were the one claiming that you use your keen insights to analyze the data yourself and not rely on the conclusions...now you have flip flopped and clearly state that you just ignore both data and arguments that refute your own....this must also be a tenet of the MPG...like creationism...all evidence against must be ignored...I think this is even a stipulation of working with ICRPB: You response it a bit vague. What do you mean? All I say is that I can analyse data by myself, and I don’t need the evolutionist’s interpretation and conclusions. That still stands and has nothing to do with the MPG.PB: No, I am not. I was expecting it anyway. Try to get it in as a commentary to PNAS articles. It should be noted that your answer is not related to my remark, but anyway, I guess you like saying 'nothing'.M: Doubt it will fly in PNAS..most of the commentaries are general reviews of a given subject for which a paper is appearing in the same issue...but good luck...if it does not work there you might try Current Biology or one of the Current Opinion's journals.PB: I’ve sent it as a commentary.PB: Here is black on white evidence of the evolutionists trick to get genetic data in accord with their theory. The mtDNA in anient human still conflict these data. The ancient human data on mtDNA in comparison with chimp demonstrate a common ancestor of human and chimp around 150.000 BP (or non-random mechanisms). The ZFY region demonstrated a very recent origin of mankind (0-800.000 BP). Also the above data would imply a recent origin of mankind. THEREFORE, the authors have to introduce ONE chimp sequence. That's the ONLY reason why they introduce the chimp, not because it is the out-group. It's just another TRICK. (I already showed the other trick of gene-tree/family-tree reconciliation). Very unscientific!!!M: They publish a date of 5 Million and you claim 150,000. where is your number coming from? Which ancient human sequence in Nature? Since you don't cite the authors or the full reference I ended up in an X ray crystalography paper....As to ZFY giving a different coalescent time than mtDNA, I already dealt with this issue and you ignored it...the main tenet of MPG..ignore falsifications of MPGPB: Mammuthus are you serious here, or deliberately obtuse, or not reading my mails, or of short memory? The data in the ancient mtDNA paper demonstrate a common ancestor for chimp and hman around 150.000 BP. The data in Nature are only in accord with evolutionism by addition of ONE chimp sequence. Read the articles!! Find out for yourself.M: Do you mean this one?
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 2001 Jan 16;98(2):537-42 Related Articles, LinksPB: Yes, I mean Adcock et all.M: Comment in:
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2001 Jan 16;98(2):390-1.PB: The comments you refer to do not affect the observations on chimp and Neanderthaler.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mitochondrial DNA sequences in ancient Australians: Implications for modern human origins.Adcock GJ, Dennis ES, Easteal S, Huttley GA, Jermiin LS, Peacock WJ, Thorne A.Research School of Pacific and Asian Studies and John Curtin School of Medical Research, Australian National University, Canberra ACT 0200, Australia.DNA from ancient human remains provides perspectives on the origin of our species and the relationship between molecular and morphological variation. We report analysis of mtDNA from the remains of 10 ancient Australians. These include the morphologically gracile Lake Mungo 3 [ approximately 60 thousand years (ka) before present] and three other gracile individuals from Holocene deposits at Willandra Lakes (
Best wishes,
Peter

PB: Apparently you didn’t understand the above sentence. It means that since evolutionism can be demonstrated to be false, atheists do not have a religion anymore.M: Atheists don't have a religion to begin with...and if you think all atheists are evolutionists you are really naive.PB: Atheists religion = evolutionism. That's why you are the most fanatic defender. Dear Mammuthus, maybe you didn't get it, but I attack you religion.M: Funny, you were the one claiming that you use your keen insights to analyze the data yourself and not rely on the conclusions...now you have flip flopped and clearly state that you just ignore both data and arguments that refute your own....this must also be a tenet of the MPG...like creationism...all evidence against must be ignored...I think this is even a stipulation of working with ICRPB: You response it a bit vague. What do you mean? All I say is that I can analyse data by myself, and I don’t need the evolutionist’s interpretation and conclusions. That still stands and has nothing to do with the MPG.M: You claimed you had no need to read any of the papers I cited because you a priori disagree with the papers. Sort of like fundies who protest against movies without actually ever having seen them...since you claim you can analyze the data yourself, it should not matter what conclusions the authors draw...you should be able to read the cited paper, access the data and support you case..you have not.PB: I read these papers and I already know the discussion. Actually, they are no discussions --as we do discussion-- they are just-so stories.M: Doubt it will fly in PNAS..most of the commentaries are general reviews of a given subject for which a paper is appearing in the same issue...but good luck...if it does not work there you might try Current Biology or one of the Current Opinion's journals.PB: I’ve sent it as a commentary.M: Good luck.M: They publish a date of 5 Million and you claim 150,000. where is your number coming from? Which ancient human sequence in Nature? Since you don't cite the authors or the full reference I ended up in an X ray crystalography paper....As to ZFY giving a different coalescent time than mtDNA, I already dealt with this issue and you ignored it...the main tenet of MPG..ignore falsifications of MPGPB: Mammuthus are you serious here, or deliberately obtuse, or not reading my mails, or of short memory? The data in the ancient mtDNA paper demonstrate a common ancestor for chimp and hman around 150.000 BP. The data in Nature are only in accord with evolutionism by addition of ONE chimp sequence. Read the articles!! Find out for yourself.M: It is you who is obtuse Peter...the paper says nothing about the common ancestor of human and chimp...it is about the most recent common ancestor of humans.PB: Drawing conclusions from data that are published but not discussed is not allowed in evolutionism? Why? You think that only if a paper says something than it is accepted as fact? Sometimes papers show much more than discussed, Especially papers on evolutionary topics. What I can see in the PNAS data (Adcock et al) --that are not discussed-- is that if modern and ancient (62 kyr BP) human differ in 10 positions, and chimp and modern human differ in 24 positions the common ancestor of both is around 150 kyr BP. Like wise, modern human and Neanderthal differ in 27 positions, and thus a common ancestor around the same time). There is not even a rudimentary clock to be found in this example.M: Although this analysis did not reliably establish an early divergence of the LM3/Insert lineage, it demonstrated that the lineage is unusually long. We confirmed the latter conclusion by comparing the distribution of pairwise differences between the LM3 and 3,453 contemporary human mtDNA sequences, the distribution between the Insert sequence and the same sample of contemporary sequences, and the distribution of differences among the 3,453 contemporary sequences (Fig. 2A). The range of differences between the LM3 sequence and the contemporary sequences (6-21, mode = 12) is at the upper end of the range of differences among contemporary sequences (0-23, mode = 6). The range of differences between the Insert sequence and the contemporary sequences (16-28, mode = 21) extends well beyond the range of differences among contemporary sequences, indicating either that the Insert has evolved faster than sequences in the mitochondrial genome or that the LM3/Insert lineage diverged earlier. The first possibility is unlikely because in mammals the nuclear genome evolves much more slowly that the mitochondrial genome, and because a high rate of substitution at the Insert locus would be associated with a high level of sequence diversity within human populations, which is not observed (49). There is also no indication of an accelerated rate of evolution in other nuclear genome inserts from the mitochondrial genome (57). The more likely explanation is that the lineage leading to the Insert and LM3 sequences diverged before the MRCA of living human mtDNA sequences."PB: What does the above quote refer to? If it demonstrates something is that genetic differences in mtDNA doesn't say anything about evolutionism, common descent or whatsoever. It merely demonstrates that one can NOT use such sequences to do evolutionism related research.A view of Neandertal genetic diversityM Krings, C Capelli, F Tschentscher, H Geisert, S Meyer, A von Haeseler, K Grossschmidt, G Possnert, M Paunovic & S Pbo
Nature Genetics 26, 144 - 146 (2000).PB: No, but thanks for this refernce. From this reference even more dramatic differences between human and Neanderthaler is observed. Far more than between human and chimp!!The sequences from the two Neandertals differ from those of 663 modern humans sampled from all areas of the world by 34+/- 4 substitutions and by an insertion of an adenosine residue shared by the two Neandertals. They are not closer to 472 contemporary mtDNAs in Europe (35.32.1, range 29—43), the area where they existed until approximately 30,000 years ago, than to, for example, 151 African (33.92.8, range 28—42) or 41 Asian mtDNAs (33.52.1, range 29—38).M: LOL...where is the chimp in this example? The pairwise distribution of humans versus chimps do not even overlap!...oh, and didnt you claim you read all Nature and Science articles on evolution? Yet you miss a prominent Nature Genetics article on neandertal's?...glad you are so thorough.PB: The chimp sequence can be found in the PNAS article (Adcock et al, PNAS 2001, 98:537-42). It demonstrates 24 differences with respect to the human reference. Your reference demonstrates 34+/-4 differences between human and neanderthal. So, the Neanderthal split off before chimp and human split off? How do you interpret this? [And, yes, I missed this one.]PB: So, please explain how you see the evolutionary clock. In my opinion these are clear cut falsifications of common descent. You can of course always introduce NON-Random Mutations.M: What does this have to do with evolutionary clocks? Your opinion is irrelevant since the data does not support your opinion.PB: As explained above, it does. Please explain why Neanderthal demonstrates far more differences than chimp in comparison to man.PB: To keep up an appearance is very unscientific. If data do not support the MPG hypothesis I would admit it. I am a scientists, I let data speak. Not the other way around.M: Ok, so support non-random evolution or any other tenet of your MPG or admit that you cannot.PB: the data on the papers we are currently dscussing support a non-random mechanism, not a mechanism that is determined by random mutation alone. If random mutation was all there is, than it was expected that Neanderthal was an intermediate between chimp and man, not the other way around. I mean, now we see chimp as an intermediate between Neanderthal and man. I think, no evolutionist would agree to that.M: Presented with SLPx alignment you could not even show one example of "obvious" non random mutation. Your other examples have been clear lack of any knowledge of pop. gen or totally not even bothering to read the papers you cite yourself.PB: I demonstrated two examples. Our problem is that you don't accept them as non-random mutations. Probably, the Neanderthalers repair mechanisms were so degenerate, a phenomenon reflected in more differences compared to man than chimp, and therefore it died out.M: Then Peter you are a liar. I claimed I do not believe molecular clocks are accurate. I provided references on the controversy surrounding using dates from molecular clocks as accurate. I also explained how this has no impact on evolutionary theory. That you go into a hissy fit about what data is produced where and how and claim that I am claiming something other than the above regarding clocks shows again that your arguments have failed and you have no alternative but to make arguments that I did not use to support your unsupportable position..pathetic.PB: So, now I am a liar. A racistic liar, I guess. Dear Mammuthus, why do you have to be so personal?
If you do not believe in molecular clocks, than even the alignment of shared mutations may be due to a different mechanisms than common descent. It may be non-random mutations.M: You are a liar because on this issue you constantly and purposefully attibute claims to me which I did not make. Your comments on the Yanomamo were stupid at best, racist at worst.PB: I didn't do that. Sometimes I draw an obvious evolutionary concluson from presented data, and wait for your response: Whether you agree or not. I like to have YOUR opinion on the topic, not the opinion of another evolutionary reference. I know their opinions. I am interested in your opinion. That's all.M: Do you even know what a molecular clock is? From your question it is clear you do not.PB: If you think so, please explain what a molecular clock is.M: And all of these organisms have been returned to the wild to see if they have reduced fitness...doubt it..and you still don't understand fitness or population genetics...Borger fallacy 1000 falsified again...kaching!PB: I don’t see the link. Please elaborate.M: LOL!!! That is the problem...that you 1) don't know what fitness is 2) don't see the link is exactly the problem.PB: If you think so, please explain what 1) fitness is, 2) the link.PB: You are free to see the one organism floating into the other. I guess you buy yourself a couple of these nice computerized animations that demonstrate the non-existing transitions fluently.M: Somehow poetic...incomprehensible but poeticPB: So you agree?M: Agree with something incomprehensible...no...just said it was poetic A bit drug induced sounding...but poetic.PB: Never seen these animations on dinosaurs? Bob Bakker shows them all the time on telly. How the one kind transforms into the other kind via non-existing transition forms.M: Ok show me the "proof" of quantum physics...PB: Ask a physic, computer designer, chip technologist.M: You made the claim..you "prove" quantum physics...or "prove" the theory of gravity....or suddenly you are relying on what a phyiscist tells you because you don't understand it? You claim to be the brilliant super skeptic who can analyze the data and find the truth...prove it hotshot.PB: The fact that you are mailing on line with a guy in Australia via a computer is proof of quantum mechanics. For you it is also proof of evolutionism, I know.M: It might actually help if you demonstrated any knowledge of population genetics...and if you think your Xfiles pseudoscience MPG is population genetics it is laughable that you claim that population genetics has been proven as almost all tenets of your hypothesis go directly against the basis of transmission genetics.PB: My X-files are backed up by science, your X-files aren't. They are backed up by stories published in peer reviewed papers. It doesn't make them more scientific.PB: Disciplines NOT supported by contemporary science are indeed pseudosciences. I agree.
According to this criterion evolutionism is pseudo-science.M: Oh you mean like that real science like "creationism" or "flood" mythology LOL! It is clear you don't actually know the difference between science and pseudoscience.PB: I know the differnce, and I will admit when the MPG cannot hold
in the light of scientific observations. That makes me a scientist. You never admit when evolutionism cannot hold. You need evolutionism for your worldview.M: Sorry Peter, evolution IS population genetics over varying periods of time...tough crap for youPB: You try it again Mammuthus. But you know that it is NOT accepted as evolution. Nothing evolved here. It is actually part of the MPG hypothesis.M: Keep dreaming Peter...ignorance is your bliss.PB: That how evolutionist keep up the appearance. By using completely wrong definitions. Dear Mammuthus, population genetics deals with GENES that are already present in the POPULATION. That's why it is called POPULATION GENETICS. The GENES of a POPULATION. Rings a bell?
Evolutionism should be concerned with the origin of genes. That what is has promised mankind: to provide an explanation for the origin of all life forms, including genes and genetic programs. It has been demonstrated over the years that evolutionism can't do that. Promises promises, nothing but promises.M: Funny that you are insulted by human chimp comparisons...kind of like your racist outburst against the Yanomamo.PB: You are getting personal, Mammuthus. Please keep it scientific.M: I did not call the Yanomamo the "rape and run indians"....not personal...just a "data supported observation".PB: I didn't call them "rape and run indians" either. I said, [quote] "you mean the rape an run cultural thing of the yanomani indians". That is what these indians do. It is a cultural thing. As soon as the lawfull husband leaves town, the other men in town rape the woman. It is an observation, and has nothing to do with racism. Do you know what racism means? Apparently not.
According to the Oxford Dictinary,
racism: 1) a belief in superiority of a particular race; prejudice based on race, 2) the belief that human abilities are determined by race.
Neither of these definitions fit my previous statements on the Yanomani. I could demand for an apology, but I am not childish. I forgive you your mistake without conditions.M: Acutally you have not shown anything in this post really. Data fits a theory or it does not and the thoery is revised or abandoned..which means MPG is screwed.PB: Actually, you don’t read my mails or you don’t understand my mails. Or you are deliberately distorting the content of my mails. More fallacies and denial.M: I read your mails..I actually answer all your posts unlike you. What am I distorting?PB: Yes, you provide a rebuttal to most of my posts. Usually, quite readable, sometimes delibately obtuse. Often, pretending not to understand the MPG, or making a strawman out of it and attack that For instance, you often refer to the MPG as non-random mutations. However, it has nothing to do with non-random mutations. In letter #1 I stated that in conjunction with non-random mutations MPG is able to explain ALL biological phenomena.PB: I already did that and there is a tremendous amount of data fitting the MPG, not fitting evolutionism. Read what the MPG hypothesis holds and predicts. Letter #1.M: Already been there...and conveniently, many of my responses falsifying MPG went unanswered...Quetzal's to.PB: No, all substantial responses have been addressed.M: Again, I would reiterate the request that you show which of the mutations in SLPx alignment are non random. It seems like a golden opportunity to at least describe an example of this phenomenon you claim exists and at the very least would show precisely what your reasoning is for the assertion.PB: here you deomonstrae my previous point. Stressing that there is no evidence for non-random (mutation while there is) and than attacking MPG. The MPG hypothesis and the NRM hypothesis and creatons-morphogenetics hypotheis together comprise the Grand Unifying Theory of Biology.PB: Where do you think I propose the non-random mutations?M: You tell me, it is your proposal after all.PB:
The aligned mutations, of course. THEY will give the assumption of common descent, not the other ones. This should be obvious. As promised I will have a close look at the presented sequences and discuss it in detail (next months or so)M: If it is so obvious then show us...saying They...not the other ones is so completely meaningless that I start to think you are joking. And if it is so obvious why do you need months to even show 1 freaking non-random mutation from SLPx alignment?..hint...because you cannot...prove me wrongPB: I will discuss this example in detail both in an evolutionary fashion and a MPG interpretation. I am not in a hurry. This board will be around for ages I guess. It will slowly evolve in a pro-creationism board.M: Aha, so your "obvious" example requires a huge effort that could take ages? considering how much you blather about non-random mutations I would assume you would be rabidly jumping up and down to show me and SLPx and the others that you are right and we are wrong...yet, this "obvious" phenomenon is not forthcoming any time soon from a data set supplied for you? Answer: there are no non-random mutations in SLPx data set.PB: Apparently you didn't have a look at Dr Page's data set. There are both random and non-random sites. The non-random mutations are the mutations you take as evidence for common descent. The random mutations are scattered. As obvious as that.M: As to this site "evolving" into a pro-creation board...only if they employ the favorite creationist board tactic which is to ban anyone who is not a creationist.PB: So you do not exclude the possibility?Best wishes,
Peter[This message has been edited by peter borger, 11-20-2002]

Dear Dr Page,Before you reply have a look at the papers. The figure demonstrates a bonobo, a chimp, a Neanderthaler and (ancient) human. A lot of data go undiscussed. Like the common ancestor for chimp and human around 150 kyr BP. I recommend evolutionists not to show the raw sequence data anymore, since it immediately falsifies their own theories. Read the papers, otherwise, don't waste my time with.Best wishes,
Peter[This message has been edited by peter borger, 11-21-2002]

Dear Dr Page,quote:
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Originally posted by peter borger:
Dear Dr Page,PB: Before you reply have a look at the papers.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------SLP: I have the paper in my hand.PB: Now open up your eyes and your mind and have an unbiased look at the data in the table of sequences. Do it!quote:
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The figure demonstrates a bonobo, a chimp, a Neanderthaler and (ancient) human. A lot of data go undiscussed. Like the common ancestor for chimp and human around 150 kyr BP.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------SLP: Like I said, there is no such figure anywhere in the paper (150,000 kyr ancestor). It goes undiscussed, apparently, because it s not in existence.PB: It is a table!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are so obtuse, there wouldn't be any better evidence for you being wrong.SLP: I submit, Borger, that you simply do not know how to interpret the tree. In fact, and I suggest you actually look at it for comprehension THIS TIME, in the tree humans branch first from Neanderthals, THEN the great apes. There is no time scale given at all, so your 150,000 bit seems completely fabricated. The scale bar in that figure is for branch length changes, not time.PB: The RAW data Mr Page, not the manipulated data. As a molecular biologist, I can interpret the RAW data myself. I do not have the manipulate them. To spell it out for you: the human reference sequence and neanderthal demonstrate 27 differences; the human reference sequence and chimp demonstrate 24 differences; the human reference sequence and bonobo 22 differences; the human refernce sequence and the ancient human (62 kyr) 10 differences. Yes, Dr Page, the authors neither counted nor showed the differences. I did that for them and it implies a common ancetsor 150 kyr BP. As mentioned before, if I were an evolutionist I would NOT show the sequences anymore, since they contain much more information than discussed in the paper. Not showing and/or discussing data doesn't sound like science to me. It looks a lot like pseudoscience. As a scientist I recognise science from pseudoscience. It is what we learn during our education.quote:
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I recommend evolutionists not to show the raw sequence data anymore, since it immediately falsifies their own theories. Read the papers, otherwise, don't waste my time with.Best wishes,
Peter--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Dr PAge: Pardon my language, but Borger, you are so full of shit that I have a hard time forcing myself to read your incoherent creationist claptrap anymore.PB: Exposing the evolutionary tricks will not make me popular among evolutionists. I don't mind. All that matters is the truth. Instead of your rude language you better PROOF evolutionism. As I asked you before, WHY DID YOU REGISTER TO THIS BOARD? All you do is being delibartely obtuse and being rude. I was under the impression that you are a scientist, but you never answer in a scientific way. All you produce is nonsense. And that for PhD-ed! Incredible! Listen, DR Page, you are the one that makes extraordinary claims so PROOF IT! And don't bore me.SLP: I understand full well that you simply do not know how to understand raw data. Your treatment of the alignment I linked to demonstrated that nicely - your naive, unsupported assertions were comically inept, to say the least.PB: The ancient evolutionary closet of tricks is wide open. Here is another one: I don't understand raw data (usually they say: you don't understand evolutionism). The usual stuff, and I am NOT at all impressed. You were the one who didn't even know a contemporary definition of a gene, demonstrating that evolutionism is propagated by a bunch of 'lagging behinds'.
Listen, Dr Page, you scoff everybody not having a PhD and overbluff them with your grade. Now, you met your match and are terribly loosing. You weren't able to addres a single one of my evolutionism-killers, and still propagate this non-sense. Incredible!SLP: You and WIlliams are a wonferful pair.PB: Thanks.SLP: Again - Borger has totally made up this common ancestor of chimps and humans at 150,000 years nonsense. The paper that HE cited does not contain the "facts" he claims - and still is claiming, apparently - are in it.PB: Again - Dr Page has demonstrated that he is not able to read molecular data on evolutionary subjects (you're an selfproclaimed 'anatomist by education', so it makes sense). The paper I refered to DOES contain these facts but are NOT mentioned neither discussed. I recommend you and your evo-friends not to show the sequences anymore. (Actually this is becoming the trend in literature. Probably the trick is to easy to see through?)SLP: I therefore consider Borger to be a charlatan, and no longer worth wasting time on. He is incompetent, dishonest, and clearly quite ignorant of the very topics he brings up.PB: I consider a disciplin that DOESN'T SHOW or DOESN'T DISCUSS ALL PRESENTED DATA as PSEUDOSCIENCE.SLP: Good day to you Borger - I sincerely hope the output in your ACTUAL area of research is not plagued with such incompetentce and dishonesty.PB: After having exposed another evolutionary trick to keep people from the truth, this is probably the last thing I will hear from Dr Page. VERY UNSCIENTIFIC DR PAGE, calling me a charlatan, while it is the other way around. Anybody who look up the paper can see that I am right on this topic (Adcock et al, Proceedings of the National Academy of Science USA, 2001, vol98, p537-542). So, Dr Page owes me another apology. And don't worry about my output.I wish you all the best defending the old paradigm. And remember the harder you kick, the harder I rebut. I always win, since evolutionism is false!Peter

dear Dr PAge,You write:
Indeed. It appears that El Retardo is applying some sort of molecular clock, which I believe he earlier had some big problems with.It is amazing how these imbeciles can so handily and almost boastfully apply and utilize such obvious double standards and simplistic 'science' when it suits their needs.I also find it funny that ElRetardo is actually trying to play the 'authority' game with me...Reading through Williams' and Borgers' posts, I am more convinced than ever that creationists suffer from a common mental defect. And I am not just writing that to be clever, I truly believe this. No rational, sane person could write such contradictory, simple-minded gibberish and actually think that they have 'scored' some sort of victory. It boggles the mind.I say:
THERE IS NO BETTER PROOF AGAINST EVOLUTIONISM THAN DR PAGE's LETTERS. PLEASE KEEP POSTING THEM.You evolutionists are in bad company.Dr Page IS the best reason I've ever encountered to become/stay anti-evolutionism.Best wishes,
Peter[This message has been edited by peter borger, 11-26-2002]

Dear Mammuthus,You say:"If Page is your "proof" against evolution and your "reason" for your unwillingness to inform youself about it then your scholarship is truly poorer than I could ever have imagined. What next? You will change your field of disciplines and not "believe" in gene expression because you don't like Rudolph Jaenisch? Great criteria...."You also say (#309 thread: mol gen evidence for a MPG):"I was making fun of you...but I see you are incapable of understanding even that...and I thought the Germans were tight asses..guess the Dutch trump them."I say:What about you, Mammuthus? How tight is it? Dr Page is also proof for the MPG. He obviously lost the how-to-be-polite genes. Best wishes,
Peter[This message has been edited by peter borger, 11-27-2002]

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What about you, Mammuthus? How tight is it? M: You hitting on me there big boy? Actually very loose..drank some spoiled milk and well..you know what happens next PB:
Dr Page is also proof for the MPG. He obviously lost the how-to-be-polite genes. M: But he has extra copies of the actually-support-his-claims-genes
Creationists seem to be homozygous deletion mutants. PB: And all in accord with the MPG hypothesis (see letter #1) Cheers
Peter