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Author Topic:   Judges 19 - Sickest story in the bible
Yaro
Member (Idle past 4604 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 1 of 120 (241429)
09-08-2005 4:30 PM


I recently came accross this chapter in the bible and was quite appaled!

1 And it came to pass in those days, when there was no king in Israel, that there was a certain Levite sojourning on the side of mount Ephraim, who took to him a concubine out of Bethlehemjudah.

2 And his concubine played the whore against him, and went away from him unto her father’s house to Bethlehemjudah, and was there four whole months.

3 And her husband arose, and went after her, to speak friendly unto her, and to bring her again, having his servant with him, and a couple of asses: and she brought him into her father’s house: and when the father of the damsel saw him, he rejoiced to meet him.

4 And his father in law, the damsel’s father, retained him; and he abode with him three days: so they did eat and drink, and lodged there.

5 And it came to pass on the fourth day, when they arose early in the morning, that he rose up to depart: and the damsel’s father said unto his son in law, Comfort thine heart with a morsel of bread, and afterward go your way.

6 And they sat down, and did eat and drink both of them together: for the damsel’s father had said unto the man, Be content, I pray thee, and tarry all night, and let thine heart be merry.

7 And when the man rose up to depart, his father in law urged him: therefore he lodged there again.

8 And he arose early in the morning on the fifth day to depart: and the damsel’s father said, Comfort thine heart, I pray thee. And they tarried until afternoon, and they did eat both of them.

9 And when the man rose up to depart, he, and his concubine, and his servant, his father in law, the damsel’s father, said unto him, Behold, now the day draweth toward evening, I pray you tarry all night: behold, the day groweth to an end, lodge here, that thine heart may be merry; and to morrow get you early on your way, that thou mayest go home.

10 But the man would not tarry that night, but he rose up and departed, and came over against Jebus, which is Jerusalem; and there were with him two asses saddled, his concubine also was with him.

11 And when they were by Jebus, the day was far spent; and the servant said unto his master, Come, I pray thee, and let us turn in into this city of the Jebusites, and lodge in it.

12 And his master said unto him, We will not turn aside hither into the city of a stranger, that is not of the children of Israel; we will pass over to Gibeah.

13 And he said unto his servant, Come, and let us draw near to one of these places to lodge all night, in Gibeah, or in Ramah.

14 And they passed on and went their way; and the sun went down upon them when they were by Gibeah, which belongeth to Benjamin.

15 And they turned aside thither, to go in and to lodge in Gibeah: and when he went in, he sat him down in a street of the city: for there was no man that took them into his house to lodging.

16 And, behold, there came an old man from his work out of the field at even, which was also of mount Ephraim; and he sojourned in Gibeah: but the men of the place were Benjamites.

17 And when he had lifted up his eyes, he saw a wayfaring man in the street of the city: and the old man said, Whither goest thou? and whence comest thou?

18 And he said unto him, We are passing from Bethlehemjudah toward the side of mount Ephraim; from thence am I: and I went to Bethlehemjudah, but I am now going to the house of the LORD; and there is no man that receiveth me to house.

19 Yet there is both straw and provender for our asses; and there is bread and wine also for me, and for thy handmaid, and for the young man which is with thy servants: there is no want of any thing.

20 And the old man said, Peace be with thee; howsoever let all thy wants lie upon me; only lodge not in the street.

21 So he brought him into his house, and gave provender unto the asses: and they washed their feet, and did eat and drink.

22 Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him.

23 And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly.

24 Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.

25 But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.

26 Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man’s house where her lord was, till it was light.

27 And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold.

28 And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place.

29 And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.

30 And it was so, that all that saw it said, There was no such deed done nor seen from the day that the children of Israel came up out of the land of Egypt unto this day: consider of it, take advice, and speak your minds.

After this story, the isrealites go out and slay all the people of Benjamine. I guess in retribution?

What the heck is the point of this tale? And Why does the asshole husband come out on top with no punishment? Is there realy a justification for this story?


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AdminBen
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 120 (241493)
09-08-2005 7:32 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 3 of 120 (241503)
09-08-2005 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Yaro
09-08-2005 4:30 PM


It's a story that got used and reused several times in the Bible. It's basically a variation on the Genesis tales, particularly Genesis 18.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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berberry
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 120 (241529)
09-08-2005 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Yaro
09-08-2005 4:30 PM


Good Question
I think jar meant to refer to Genesis 19, the story of Lot and the city of Sodom. That's the story fundies often use to condemn gays, in spite of the fact that the hero, Lot, attempts to pimp out his virgin daughters and later gets drunk and impregnates those daughters. Since the apostle Paul refers to this would-be pimp as a "rightous" man, I don't see how anyone can possibly consider the bible to be an acceptable moral guide.

In any case, I agree with jar that the story you cite is simply an alternate version of the Lot story. If there is a point to it I can't discern it. Such stories are simply the musings of pre-historic tribal nomads.


"I think younger workers first of all, younger workers have been promised benefits the government promises that have been promised, benefits that we can't keep. That's just the way it is." George W. Bush, May 4, 2005
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Yaro
Member (Idle past 4604 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 5 of 120 (241532)
09-08-2005 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminBen
09-08-2005 7:32 PM


Your av,,, looks familiar...
Is that a statue of the Robot in "Laputa: Castle in the sky"?

I love that cartoon :)


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AdminBen
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 120 (241534)
09-08-2005 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Yaro
09-08-2005 10:08 PM


Re: Your av,,, looks familiar...
Yup. You can see it at the Studio Ghibli museum... just outside of Tokyo, Japan.

I wrote a bit about it when I first became a moderator... www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=20&t=114&m=7#7 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=20&t=114&m=7#7">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=20&t=114&m=7#7

I agree, it's a pretty good flick!


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jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 120 (241538)
09-08-2005 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by berberry
09-08-2005 10:06 PM


Re: Good Question
You're right about Genesis 19, but the negotiation that leads up to it starts in Genesis 18. That's where Abraham and God negotiate about how many honorable men must be found.

But it's another ongoing Max Sennett marathon. It starts way back in Genesis 13 IIRC and it's a series of continuing cliffhangers designed for tales around the campfire.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 86 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 8 of 120 (241545)
09-08-2005 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Yaro
09-08-2005 4:30 PM


What the heck is the point of this tale?

it, like genesis 19, is all about ancient standards of hospitality. it is the duty of the host to protect and serve his guest at any and all costs -- including his own wife, daughters, property, etc.

And Why does the asshole husband come out on top with no punishment?

because he did what he was supposed to do.

i'm not entirely sure why he was allowed to offer his guest's concubine (am i reading that right?).


אָרַח

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 14818
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 9 of 120 (241692)
09-09-2005 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Yaro
09-08-2005 4:30 PM


It's pretty sick, but Numbers 25 is to my mind even worse.
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CK
Member (Idle past 2236 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 10 of 120 (241706)
09-09-2005 5:44 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by PaulK
09-09-2005 3:16 AM


Is that the one where God sends some bears to tear some children to pieces ?
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 14818
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 11 of 120 (241708)
09-09-2005 6:01 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by CK
09-09-2005 5:44 AM


No, that's in 1 Kings IIRC.
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1565 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 12 of 120 (241729)
09-09-2005 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Yaro
09-08-2005 4:30 PM


Shoftim 19
Hey Yaro,

I've been trying to find something from the Jewish perspective.

This article The Book of Judges: The Israelite Tribal Federation and Its Discontents seemed to bring out the overall point of the Book of Judges which I found in various supposed Jewish sites.

Excerpt:

So does Chapter 19, which begins the horrible story of the mass rape-murder of the concubine at Gibeah. According to this story, the base men of Benjamin assault an Israelite passing through from Judah to Ephraim and have their way with his concubine until she is dead. The wronged Israelite summons men from the other tribes to punish Benjamin.

Here for the first time since the days of Joshua all of Israel from Dan to Beersheva and from both sides of the Jordan is presented as assembling at Mizpeh to punish the Benjaminites. The processes of federal governance described in Chapters 20 and 21 to close the book are of special interest, giving us a glimpse of the tribal federation in action in that epoch, first to respond to a case of wantonness and wickedness and then to preserve the intertribal dimensions of the edah.

I did find a few sites that compare the sin of Sodom (considered to be worse) with the sin of the Benjamites.

IMO though the political spin is probably more the point of the book of Judges.


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
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Desmotes
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 120 (242121)
09-10-2005 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by PaulK
09-09-2005 6:01 AM


It looks like it's 2 Kings 2:24.

(link)


"What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty and democracy?"
-Gandhi
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5381
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 14 of 120 (242123)
09-10-2005 6:48 PM


Genesis chapter 34 ain't all that appealing, either.
    
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1156 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 15 of 120 (245581)
09-21-2005 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Yaro
09-08-2005 4:30 PM


What the heck is the point of this tale? And Why does the asshole husband come out on top with no punishment? Is there realy a justification for this story?

In case your question is not rhetorical - I will take a stab at it.

It is a gruesome account no doubt about it. But there is reason why God wanted this in the Bible.

I can accurately liken this story with ANY story we hear on the news today. Which is more disgusting: the Judges story or a car bomb that murders scores of innocent people ? Or the rapes that happened to defenseless women after Katrina when the police were not around ? Or the hospital owners who deliberately abandoned 45 elderly patients to drown in Katrina waters ?

The point is this horrible story from the O.T. is no different from the horrible events, crimes, and wars that go on today. The shocking reports that come out of Africa; machete wielding mobs hacking women and children to death is almost unimaginable. I have a friend who goes to China on business regularly and he tells me people abandon infants in desolate places to die slowly because they cannot afford to take care of them.

As for someone not getting punished when they deserve it: how many Enron thiefs are sitting in a jail cell today ? How about Turkey denying the Armenian genocide to this very day ? They have spit on the idea of reparations and apologies. IOW, guilty parties get off free all the time.

The Bible story REFLECTS the way of the world - always, in its stark wretched reality.

God could of omitted this story but He didn't. He included the story to show us how horrible His chosen oracle people behaved for the single purpose of demonstrating His faithfulness to them regardless. When they turned to Him and destroyed their idols He forgave and delivered them.

The message is that God will do the same for us despite what horrible thing we have done IF we turn to His Son by faith.

Hebrews 13:8

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

This message has been edited by Herepton, 09-21-2005 08:49 PM

This message has been edited by Herepton, 09-21-2005 08:50 PM


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